Socialism Forum!

Discussion in 'Socialism' started by Aristartle, Jan 16, 2009.

  1. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Has the increasing aid and regulation proven it changes things for the better?
     
  2. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Indie

    Oh I’m all for reform - the problem is that all you have presented so far would seem to only make things worse for the majority of people (while favouring a minority), a charge that you have so far been unable to defend your ideas against.

    The thing is that you seem to want to make things worse for most people and I wonder why?
     
  3. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Government does not have the resources, nor does it produce the goods and services to accomplish what you would like it to do. The U.S. government, perhaps different in the UK, does not legally possess a right to redistribute anything from one sector of society to another. Read our Constitution and you will discover that to be a fact, which is not provided under the general welfare clause, or the commerce act, if properly interpreted.

    You are free to do so, just give and keep giving.

    I didn't say anyone should die, just that each person should begin to take responsibility for themselves, not demand government to make someone else care for them. I think most people would exert greater effort to do so if they found it to be necessary, and then those who really needed help could receive the care they needed.

    Those that can't compete could be taken much better care of if those who can compete would.

    Equal pay for equal work, not everyone can become an executive, but most everyone can be productive in some way.

    We wouldn't like to attract tourists, missionaries, and perhaps even the government here who may not realize how independent we remain from the government where we are.

    I said nothing of the kind. There's quite a difference between having a disagreement with and individual with whom you have contact, and a disagreement with millions scattered over a large area with whom you have little or no direct contact with at all.

    In rare cases there is a need for Federal involvement, but not as often as it appears to feel necessary. California is deeply in debt, as are New York, Illinois, New Jersey. Should that become a problem creating a dispute between them and Alabama, Texas, Nebraska, or other States and require Federal government intervention as an arbiter?
     
  4. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Not losing anything here, are you? What is there for me to explain, other than I expect the U.S. government to operate as provided for in the U.S. Constitution, not as a Marxist Socialist form of government. At least not without amending the Constitution or creating a new Constitution entirely.
     
  5. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    the aid has increased - this is not for the better

    the regulations seem to go up and down, i don't have a chart but would guess mostly down [at least where it counts]

    i would like to see more, as would the people of pennsylvania, no doubt . . .
     
  6. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Where have you seen me promoting a Marxist, Socialist, or Communist form of government? Or for that matter a pure Democracy?
     
  7. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    please explain how we can be a marxist nation while the proletariat does not control the means of production?

    bonus: why are you against the classless and stateless society that is the avowed goal of marxism?
     
  8. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Take a look at what Congress produces each year and try and tell me that there regulation is decreasing. It would be impossible for an individual to read, much less understand the laws and regulations produced annually, added to those previously created. It requires huge amounts of wealth to afford the legal assistance required to start a business and remain within all the laws and regulations, avoiding the possibility of prosecution.
     
  9. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    ^^did you read the linked article?

    i've started a few businesses myself [am not good at business though so...], and known many small business owners, none of whom seem to have the problems you describe
     
  10. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Everything has a beginning, and change does not always occur abruptly. In fact the more gradual it occurs the less noticeable it is.

    Because it is unobtainable, except on a very small scale, where those who do not or will not submit can be eliminated from it. On a large scale where those who will not submit are left with no where to go, it can never achieve the classless or stateless society it puts forth as the ultimate goal as they must be dealt with which requires a source of power above that of the general society and can only be achieved by persecution, oppression, imprisonment or physical elimination, as decided by those who exist in a class above all the others. In simple terms, there will always be someone who calls the shots.
     
  11. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    yes, and thankfully there are 49 more states who will aid in funding any cleanup.

    The nice thing is you may be able to break many laws without knowing, until someone happens to find there is a law in existence that can be used to profit from your innocent ignorance.
     
  12. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    wouldn't it be better - and cheaper - to stop things like this before they happen?
     
  13. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    i prefer to think that human beings are capable of evolving

    perhaps, with a little help, and a lot of time . . .
     
  14. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Of course, but what would you propose doing to accomplish that?
     
  15. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Evolving into what? Identical copies of one another?

    By help, are you referring to government imposed mandates? Do you think humans could ever reach a point where government would no longer be necessary and be completely eliminated? Perhaps only after a nuclear war that left but a handful of humans remaining on the planet?
     
  16. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Indie

    You have stated this before and we have been through it at length and the problem is you still have not addressed the criticisms of your viewpoint.

    For example from post 346 in the Effort or Luck thread
    http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=6623287&postcount=346

    in the Effort or Luck thread page 35 and onward.
    http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=400136&page=35
    Or people could try
    Post 83
    http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=6554172&postcount=83

    in the Small government thread page 9 and onward
    http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=361461&page=9

    Basically you have a viewpoint and you have created an interpretation of the US constitution based on that viewpoint – the problem is that your viewpoint seems to be deeply if not fundamentally flawed.

    As I’ve often repeated you seem to try and hide the deficiencies of you ideas by harking back to the US constitution and sorry it just doesn’t work.

    So your reply seems yet again to be just so much more evasion.

    *
     
  17. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Indie
    What I’ve been asking you is what you mean by seeming to say that people you think have no value to society should die.

    Again we have been through this and it always seems to end up with you denying you are a Social Darwinist but never explaining why your views are so very close to those of a Social Darwinist. Can you address that now?

    Again we have been through this – remember the whole thing about the flawed argument some people give about the ‘deserving and undeserving’ poor? You still have still not addressed the criticism of your view raised in that discussion.
    *

    Again you have claimed this before but once again you have still not addressed the criticisms of it, can you now?

    Yes but again this is a slogan it doesn’t address the criticisms of that viewpoint such as the greatest effect on a person’s life is where and to whom they are born. This can give someone advantages or disadvantages that can affect their whole lives and their possibility of having success or failure, and long before they have the independence to take certain actions themselves.
     
  18. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Indie

    Trying to have an honest debate with you often seems a bit like trying to extract teeth from a jellyfish (;-)

    You have a habit of repeating statements or arguments that you already know have criticism levelled at them as if those criticisms were still not outstanding.

    In other words you repeatedly ignore criticism because you’re completely unable to address them, let alone refute them.

    Oh I’m sure you’ll use the same old trick you have before when this has been pointed out to you – that you don’t recognise the criticisms as valid – but that doesn’t make the charges go away it’s just a fancy way of saying you are not going to answer.

    Anyway why not begin a new year by actually addressing a few of these criticisms you might find the experience enlightening.

    *
     
  19. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    regulations?

    haven't you been paying attention? in the last century?

    btw, the sig pic is neither accurate not funny
     
  20. wa bluska wica

    wa bluska wica Pedestrian

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    oh ye of limited imagination

    [when it suits your purposes]
     

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