socialisim in the us

Regarding Jack's point about how Americans assume people can only be happy in an American-style democracy...

There's a very cool article in the August 2 issue of Newsweek about psychologists who study "basic human behavior" by looking at American college kids and other citizens of Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic societies (otherwise known as WEIRD).

Basically, the article looks at the cultural differences between the East and West and how Americans tend to believe folks can only happy living like we do. (Which isn't true.)

Look, I think I'm lucky to have been born American (if only because certain parts of the world lack air conditioning). But it grinds my gears when Americans get arrogant, assuming that our way is etched in stone as the happiest way of life, when really we just live in a different culture. It's all relative. Not to mention that in most 'happiness index' studies, Americans routinely fall in the middle of the pack, while the Dominican Republic -- a country with a lot less Ipods and American Dreams 'n stuff -- consistently ranks among the happiest nations in the world.

 

I have spent a lot of time in Mexico (more than one city) and seems that my friends there take what they can get for happiness.
Most of them grew up in a one party political system, rampant corruption with police and state and national officials. In some areas the drug gangs are scary beyond words. Many of the people there are profoundly angry and disappointed with the situation as it is now and as it used to be when the PRI ran things. But do they let it spoil their lives? No, of course not! Most Mexicans are happy to remain home in their culture rather than move to a different nation, different climate, different culture. My friends in the altiplano don't want to live in the jungle. My friends in the desert have no interest in moving to Mexico City with its problems.
The ones who come to America are typically desperate, nearly starved out. There are some who come for the "easy life", but they are often disappointed when they get here. It ain't home.

But is freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of mobility, exclusively an American dream? Of course not! Millions in myriads of cultures aspire to these things.

 

Most colonists were prosperous until Britain took their freedom away.

It would have been misleading if I had said they all thought the same way.

What they had in common was: all had rights as British subjects and all lost those rights. Most but not all reacted sharply to that loss

Whether it was the revolution or not, a small but noteworthy number of slaves were inspired to escape the plantation and make a run for it. The Underground Railroad could never have been successful if slaves did not believe that freedom was better than chains. The white abolitionists could not have done it on their own.

 

gardenguy, you keep bringing up events of well over 200 years ago

it's boring, and irrelevant

we live in the present, let's discuss that

 

you need to do some research into the East India Trading Company monopoly (the real reason for the american war of indepandance)

as for the original question.. i don't see why america couldn't become a socialist country.. it's got a coupla generations of really hard sell capatalist propaganda to get over, but it could still change.... look what happened to the USSR in the eighties

 

on the subject of happiness, I think America's way of life doesn't foster happiness. There is a monotony to america, a network of sameness all across the country..roads filled with mcdonalds, wal marts, best buys, burger kings, whole foods.....driving through the suburbs of my town makes me incredibly depressed. I personally would probably be happier living poor in a third world country, surrounded by tighter family values and more nature and less commercialism. I have to leave the suburbs and head to the mountains or lock myself in my house away from the world with my close friends to find true feelings of peace and happiness. I guess one could say that the extreme capitalistic nature of america lends to my unhappiness. Some of the happiest citizens in China are probably the ones that still live a rural way of life, away the tedious stresses of a capitalistic lifestyle. But is a nation's overall happiness a good measure of their government? I don't believe it is government's job to provide happiness, only to protect the right for citizens to pursue their own destiny.

 

And millions in some cultures don't. Some Muslim cultures come to mind where the vast majority have the same religion and prefer not to be exposed to other values. Some people are comfortable in a closed and controlled society where norms and values are clearly spelled out. They know what to expect from their friends and neighbors and they know what is expected of them.

.

 

there was also this crazy british idea of restricting westward expansion, and honoring agreements made with the native americans

not sure if the brits would've held to that, but it must've been maddening to protean manifest destiny seekers

of course, there were other reasons too, both noble and ignoble . . .

 

What we need is a world united by the laws of god alone as no human who is equal to every other human can know what is needed by all humans. We put our collective destinies into the hands of a minority that have proven over and over their greed, misguidance and lack of concern for the earth or her creatures. Wake up people. Everything in the world should be freely given to all. You should be able to travel her without boundry and seek your destiny. Govern yourselves. Love each other, respect each other. Ownership is an illusion, a dangerous one. Give to all our gifts that no cash value can undermine its existence. We are one fucking family, we can take care of each other. Hear these words. This is heaven, here, now. choose. The cycle of destruction and insanity, or a beautiful, truly free world

 

yes, the "laws of god" bit has proven so peaceful in the past . . .

have you read the old testament?

oh wait, my mistake, the "promised land" was not "united", that's why the israelites had to kill everybody

so, how do we force everyone who does not wish to be "united by the laws of god" -- take me, for example -- to submit to your wisdom?

 

For a guy who thinks history is irrelevant, you know quite a bit of it and this knowledge may save us from the present foolishness.

 

only in this context, a discussion of current political trends in the us

i guess too, irrelevant might be too a harsh word

perhaps i have grown weary of being lectured on the founding fathers, mostly by libertarians who seem to think we can miraculously turn back the clock

 

Meliai, I feel your pain!
There are still places in America that are not ruined by the corporate cookie cutter, but you'll have to look hard to find them.
I know some places in Mexico like this too. I ain't telling where. My amigos would never invite me back if I spilled the beans.

 

No problem, I am not a libertarian nor any kind of ideologue. I am cafeterian (a person who goes to a political cafeteria and picks from a variety of paradigms. I guess you could say that I am a moderate Democrat who is willing to listen to all sides of an argument though I can lose my wits listening to poorly reasoned arguments (not you).

 

I feel ya on some of this, and I also want to mention Jack's point about certain people in the Mid East that like the control thrust upon them...

Think about a society with very strict standards of how you should live your life. While Westerners are like, "Fuck that, I'mma do my own thing", our very way of life (and way of thought) can lead to greater disappointment if we don't achieve our goal of "doing our own thing". Compare that to a Muslim kid growing up in a stricter culture. Sure, shit like that seems crazy to us, but to him, our ideals are fuckin wacky. Because if he just fulfills a certain standard of what he was taught, he'll be like, "Okay I lived an awesome life." He was taught that shit his whole life, so he's adjusted to it.

Don't get me wrong. I dig the Western way of life (not necessarily the traditional 'American' way of life, or materialism in general) and I am very fond of being able to write dick jokes and other irreverent bullshit for a little bit of cash without consulting the Koran first.

But I also won't look down on another culture for doing shit a different way. Most of the time, anyway...that shit about the Iranian broad getting sentenced to being stoned to death for some bullshit pissed me off on a personal level (I'm a mama's boy like you wouldn't believe...lol)

 

i have a difficult time making decisions

sometimes i wonder if i'd do better with less options

?

 

I quit eating cereal a long ago because the Isle in the grocery store is a nightmare. When I was a kid it was Raisin Bran, Corn Flakes or Cheerios. Now there is an entire isle a block long with a hundred different kinds of the stuff. Yesterday while shopping I noticed a new kind of water, Nursery water, on top of spring, distilled, mountain, drinking, glacier and an endless number of flavored waters. My god, how many variations of H2O can they come up with.

And, if you're not good at decisions, don't have a kid, the baby food isle will give you seizures.

.

 

oh, i don't eat any of that sort of stuff

lately it's been rice, chickpeas, carrots, broccoli, tahini

fortunately i either don't get bored any more, or am always so bored i no longer notice

kids? never had them, perhaps the best decision i have ever made [i would've been the worst parent ever]

what the hell was my point?

oh yeah, something about the unnecessary nature of "freedom", as an applied discipline [eh?]

 

Not to get too far off topic in this thread, but I came across this interesting video. Earlier in the thread the topic of education came up and something about a dumb citizenry is a compliant one.

I've spent the last three months in Europe and have gotten to know quite a few people. I always ask the people I meet what their perception is of the USA and it's citizens. Most people believe we are an ignorant population. I currently go to a small, private, liberal arts college in the Northwest, and I feel like I'm surrounded by some of the brightest and most intelligent people I've ever met. Perhaps the experience has left me somewhat disillusioned on the education level of the rest of our nation.

Take the time to watch all 9 minutes. It's funny, yet sad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMEX84uDe_I"]YouTube- Ignorant Supremacist Citizens of a Fascist Imperialist State

 

On another topic related to education and socialism... I spent a week in Belgium with quite a few university students there, the majority of which are studying Law or Engineering (they don't have many options for useless majors). Their schooling costs 800 euros/year for their five-year Masters programs. This also includes the Erasmus program, which allows them to spend one year studying in any other EU country (thereby making the majority of them bi/trilingual)

The infrastructure here is astounding too. Public mass transit is everywhere. I know this is all made easier by the density of Europe, but the idea of having a city like L.A. over here without an underground metro system would be unheard of.

Three months in over 15 cities and I have yet to see a large truck that wasn't for commercial/public service use. SUVs are pretty rare also. Meanwhile, tons of people drive their 8 mpg vehicles around our cities.