So I was in psychology class yesterday..

Discussion in 'Cannabis and Marijuana' started by Formertechno34, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. nesta

    nesta Banned

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    ^if i mentioned one od, i was mistaken. i know of no such thing, and would be interested in sources or further information. OD50 is virtually never known in humans, though. it usually refers to experiments done in rats. while rats handle many drugs comparably to humans, they are not humans. it stands to reason there may be differences

    further, the main issue with bongs is the water "filtration"

    if you've smoked a bong with a small water capacity, or a bubbler, you will have noticed the water turning brown. this is a result of water soluble substances being caught in the water as the smoke passes through it. this is why it's assumed to be better for you than other forms of smoking.

    lets looks at a few other things, though. the water cools the smoke (in most cases this is what people aim for, but i use hot water as the combination of smoke with steam is more soothing than just cooled smoke), making it more comfortable to hit. the reason THC is smokable is because it vaporises with heat. cooling the smoke is counterproductive. the reason resin is smokable is because some THC and other cannabinoids cooled with the rest of the gunk, rendering it psychoactive.

    ever notice how the resin in a bong is virtually nonexistant at the top, but gets heavy near the water line?

    further, the water will not remove gases from the smoke, such as carbon monoxide. yet it WILL decrease the water soluble solids in it, as well as other substances which while water soluble will condense as a result of the cooling.

    gram for gram, a joint or pipe will maintain their cannabinoid levels better than a bong will, but many of the nasties in the smoke will not be removed from a bong.

    your paragraph on why cannabinated alcohol won't work is almost unreadable. for example "you could also thc isnt water soluable, but it is fat soluable."

    there are many cannabinoids, it's true, but let me tell you all of them are QUITE soluble in alcohols as well as nonpolar solvents (i.e. butane, hexane, naptha, etc.) and lipids/fats. smokable preparations can be made with alcohols as in ISO hash oil, and the quick wash ISO method. using cannabis in beverages is very well documented (bhang, for instance, which is even nonalcoholic but -reasonably- high in fat)

    using alcohol to make a cannabinated drink is finicky, but it works well. tincture of cannabis is a VERY old and WELL documented, highly effective product. a very high alcohol content, it carries the active components to the bloodstream very well.

    it has to be relatively high alcohol in order to work properly. in fact, in my experience, even 50%ABV was not capable of getting all the goodies then putting them in your body when given a month of maceration and plenty of shaking and stirring. the cannabis also has to be in the right proportions - i dont recommend less than 1g/fl. oz.

    everclear or something comparable of course works best for things like this. its modern, colloquial name is green dragon and its effectiveness is very well established both for medical and recreational usage. heating is NOT required - and the same goes for when eating cannabis. this is a common misconception. some chemical changes DO occur when heat is applied, accounting for the qualitative differences in effect, but there is not really such a thing as "activating" thc. so long as you use fine, well dried and cured buds, there should be no need to do anything to cause further chemical changes within the plant. it is already orally active if properly consumed.

    while extraction is unnecessary in the strictest sense, it does aid in both palatability and absorbtion in the GI tract (and thus can assist in the quality of the effect). a light to empty stomach is also highly desirable. the THC and related compounds may be extracted into butter or oil and used for cooking, or they may be extracted into very strong alcohol and drank.

    as you said, yes, THC is insoluble in water. making tea from cannabis is virtually impossible.

    one question to which i have not found satisfactory information is on the subject of cannabinated beer. the alcohol content of beer is relatively extremely low, averaging at 5%ABV, or less, for most beers. the highest alcohol content you're likely to find in most "normal" beers -except in a limited number of craft beers, which may go as high as 20-25%ABV, still too weak to be of any use here - is going to be around 10%ABV.

    now conventional wisdom is that you CANNOT make a cannabinated beer. first of all, when the beer is brewed, there is NO alcohol present. only water and other ingredients, not likely to extract the THC. most attempts at making cannabinated beers have been miserable failures on all accounts.

    but there is some anecdotal evidence to support the idea that it may well be possible. for instance my uncle is rather crafty, an occasional homebrewer and a personal use grower. my father and mother occasionally recall a particularly magic beer he brewed once which they all consumed before a canoe trip. they said it tasted lousy, but got them VERY stoned. lets consider a few things which may be possibilities:

    a) it is possible to make a VERY strong and concentrated tincture of cannabis and add it to the fermented beer prior to bottling, in much the same way a flavored syrup may be added for flavored beers brewed without special herbs or fruits. this is unlikely, as the increased alcohol content of the beer would likely kill off the remaining yeast and make refermentation in the bottle impossible, which is necessary to naturally carbonate a homebrew.

    b) the closest botanical relative of cannabis is the hops vine. hops flowers look similar to a cross between cannabis flowers and pine cones ( http://blog.oregonlive.com/thebeerhere/2007/08/large_hops1.jpg )

    they are sticky, green, resinous and fragrant, and are known to have a calming, slightly sedative effect on their own and without alcohol. if picked apart, a sticky golden resin is found near the center and bottom of the flower. it's called lupulin, and is credited with most of the hops bitter and sedative properties. (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/graphics/photos/jan08/d1001-1i.jpg , http://www.foothillhops.com/images/Img2.jpg )

    hops may do one or all of three things for beer, depending on the variety of hop in question and the length of time it is boiled in the wort (wort is unfermented beer. the transition from wort to beer occurs, in a very technical sense, when the yeast is added and fermentation officially begins). if boiled for around 5 minutes at the end of the brew, it will add its unique aromatic qualities. for instance, many hoppy american beers have a very fragrant floral or citrus quality. this is because of aroma hops. if used for a little bit longer, lets say 10 minutes, it will add more flavor to the beer in addition to some aroma, but it will add little in the way of actual bitterness, which is the MAIN job of the hop

    substances known as alpha acids are definitely the bittering part of the hop when you get down to it. like THC, they are not normally soluble in water. HOWEVER - IF you boil them for long enough, say, 30 minutes or even sometimes much longer, they will eventually leave the hops and go into solution in the water - and NOT precipitate out later when it cools.

    now i am skeptical of anyone claiming to make a cannabinated beer, and have yet to try such a thing myself. however, it is perhaps worth considering that perhaps the only thing people need to do to get the THC into the water is to boil it for a very long time. 30-90 minutes, for instance. it is unlikely but possible that this may effectively cannabinate the final product. the water insoluble components of the closest relative to cannabis may be made water soluble in such a way, its not unreasonable to speculate that cannabis would be the same way. this would explain allegedly effective cannabinated beers with a complete FAILURE in the question of cannabis tea. steeping would not be anywhere close to enough.

    the idea that pre-burned cannabis is necessary to make a cannabis tincture is foolishness, and likely to get one very, very ill. cannabis, even if organically grown, produces many noxious substances when burned, just like any other plant (take tobacco for instance). consuming these things orally is likely to be very upsetting to the body, VERY nasty in taste, and even slightly dangerous. i hope you aren't the kind of guy who eats the roach or drinks the bongwater.

    adam gottlieb's the Art and Science of Cooking With Cannabis (1973) is the earliest reference i can see to "activating" the THC with heat. it also goes into detail as to the chemical processes involved with converting some orally nonpsychoactive compounds into more effective substances, in reasonable detail for a lay person. i suspect this is the origin of the term, or close enough to it to have allowed the phrase to catch on. over the years its become less and less well explained and understood, and people now seem to think its MANDATORY for consuming cannabis, which simply isnt true. it will simply increase the potency - and only in specific cases. well dried and cured cannabis is PERFECTLY suitable for an extraction with very highly concentrated ethanol at ambient temperature, and heating is entirely unecessary. even simply eating well ground, raw cannabis on an empty stomach has the potential to be incredibly effective. i've gotten VERY VERY high in the past with both methods, and i've smoked more than once or twice and know how being high feels...this was no placebo effect. with eating a decent amount of raw weed before going to the airport to get on an airplane...well, i can tell you this much: i was having trouble staying awake, and flying over a thunderstorm at sunset was a fucking treat.

    anyway, i better wrap this up and take a shower. happy trails and safe smoking, everyone!
     

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