So God help us in the next four years.

Me too, it maybe misplaced, but that remains to be seen. For today and tomorrow I have hope right now! Something I haven't had for quite a while. That must irk the republicans that tried to sell another presidential campaign based on fear, and a false promise of security.

They should have picked a presidential candidate that knew how many homes he owned. And a vice presidential candidate that could afford her own wardrobe.

 

Just to point out a couple of fallacious arguments that cropped up during this thread.
1.) Just because some abortions occur naturally that doesn't justify humans committing it. People die naturally all the time, but it isn't moral to go around shooting people in the face.
2.) The fact that occasionally some abortions are done because the pregnancy was a result of rape is somewhat misleading, because only a small fraction of abortions are done for this reason. Over 90% of abortions are done either for financial, career, or strictly emotional reasons. I tend to think most pro life people would eagerly accept a law that prohibited abortion in all cases except rape and incest since it would do away millions of abortions per year.
3.) Neither side has given any rational argument as to why a fetus is or is not a human life. The discussion has overwhelmingly been emotional and trite. The answer to the question may best be answered on a philosophical level rather than the quoting of law or theology.

 

Why not reply to the abortion threads why try to make everything about this one issue, if that doesn't work you going to bring up flag burning? Or the second amendment and the right to own guns?

 

Bit touchy there gardener. I was merely making the point that if a rational discussion can't be had it shouldn't be had at all. I have no problem dropping the issue altogether. Further, if people wanted to discuss abortion, flag burning or the second amendment, you would be under no obligation to participate in that discussion.

 

I'll be as touchy as I want when I see an organized movement to discredit and derail real discussion. This discussion was started about the HOPE that Obama engenders, it wasn't about gun rights, abortion or Israel as the Chosen Land.

And I will participate in it. HOPE, and the progress he's made in the last few days is one of the things that will get this world on a new footing.

And I avoid all those discussions about abortion, gun rights and flag burning, because under our constitution they are protected, private and individual.

 

I can understand that you are emotional about the subject, but please know that I was not trying to take a side, I simply wanted to give some balance to what appeared to me to be a very emotionally driven and illogical debate.

Secondly, I like Obama, and I do have a great deal of hope that he will be a good president. I think you mistook me for some right wingnut. I believe we got off on the wrong foot here. No need for us to become embittered. Let's shake on it and talk about hope then, you'll find no argument with me on that subject.

 

Pax. But be aware abortion, gun rights and flag burning are always brought up when one side wants the upper hand. I probably did mistake you for a wingnut...my apologies if you are not.

 

I agree that I HOPE Obama's term will indeed bring positive changes to America. No amount of politics would ever make me want to see any president fail. It only means failure for us all.

However, I don't think Obama will bring about very much at all and I base this on what I see:

He does not have years of carefully cultivated political relationships built up in Washington, something most presidents have.

He said that more Americans will be going into combat.

He has no qualms at all about using military force to move an agenda.

He is already causing economic problems with his talk of going after power companies that use coal, unfortunately it's nearly 80% of our electricity source, so hitting coal hits every American in the wallet FAST.

Just once I want to be able to vote for a presidential candidate who does NOT have shady, crooked, controversial and blatantly anti-American characters in their sphere of associations. (This of course goes for both parties)

His support for bailing out Wall Street is pure shame. Merrill executives and Bank of America executives are being handed billions of dollars in bonuses for their "acheivements" in 2008. This is an outrage even Obama should be brave enough to go after, instead he shovels more dollars onto the fire.

Of course I do see value to his novelty side and I would never suggest his term will be entirely meaningless. I just don't think he will make many changes that are politically important.

So I think some changes have already begun and some are still to be realized. Such as:

Obama was elected only because of the support of white voters. There are not enough black voters in America to get him elected and a good many of them are in red states where their votes for him are basically symbolic and carry no political clout. So Obama's election is absolute proof that white America turned the corner on discrimination and racism some time ago and have made amazing progress in racial relations over the last 4 decades. This was not Obama's effort, but he is the symbol of proof that our society is equalizing no matter what Jesse, Al and Rev Wright seem to think. Although Jackson is clearly interested in making sure Obama has no sons!

I was also glad to see anyone BUT another Bush or Clinton, though I can't be certain just yet that Obama isn't just Clinton's tool.

But regardless of Obama's term politically, socially it's a moon launch. My family came to America in 1910, well after the Civil War. But I was raised in Alabama, with a Germanic surname and white skin, so I was always assumed to be a racist. My family never practiced racism. My grandfather had to deal with the Klan who objected to him selling liquor to black clubs and I was called a ******-lover in high school because I would not use the word ****** and because I listened to Parliment, the Gap Band, Donna summer and Tavares. Still, I was hated for my white skin anyway. I'm hoping that will start turning around because of Obama. I live in Atlanta now and still hear racial shit thrown my way because of my white skin.

I'm pretty sick of it, but I am quite proud to be part of the race that put in America's first black president. It's time to let the past GO. Bury the race card, bury the word ******, bury the hate. To make real progress will take more than just white people voting in a black man though.

CF

 

He can only accomplish what we help him accompliish. And I am sure there are many that want to see him fail. I am not clear on where he stands on the whole middle east situation. I hope he hasn't been bought and paid for by the the big petroleum interests or Israel, but in US politics that's a possibility.

He's not causing the economic problems, the market is doing what they've done all along. And now they get bailed out while we get told to suck it up. I agree and I hope now that he's been elected we'll see a change in this economic strategy, I have no idea where he stands on that. I think he's intelligent and he won't be sold an empty bill of goods.

Obama was elected because we were mad as hell, and not willing to take it any more. McCain only wanted to sell us fear and more military force...we lost confidence in that a long time ago. And Palin didn't make us feel any safer.

 

Socialism works hella well in Denmark. Gosh, I can't believe you don't read. Worked well in Germany too.

 

You need to think long and hard before you seriously attack and make lame attempts to insult someone like that again.

This statement stands alone. You don't know. I could write a book on what you don't know. In fact I've written several. You don't know but you seem to think you have all the answers. You don't. And neither do I. Which is why neither of us are running for public office.

 

Usually, maybe, but not in this case. I have had a few gay friends, I don't mind them. I am actually for gay marriage because what do I care if the fags get married. How does fiscally conservative, socially liberal equal facisism anyway?

No, the real Americans will never abandon our country so liberals like yourself can take over. Yes, you currently own Congress, and you own the White House. But I am going to fight to get some Conservatism back into Congress in 2010. Why? Because Washington would want me to. This country was founded on the basis of individual accountability and states having more rights than the central government and you are trying to destroy that philosophy with 800Billion dollar destimulus package with more pork than a Police Academy. Why should someone in Michigan have to fund the construction of TriRail trains in Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, Florida (TriRail is the train system that runs through the three counties, and Obama is going to give us something like 200 Million dollars to build more trains. I grew up in Miami.) Why should I have to fund the building of a bridge in Maine. Why should someone in Texas have to fund the firefighters in Seattle. It just doesn't make any sense.

If Obama took that 800 Billion dollars, he could send a $2700 check to every man woman and child in the country. That would stimulate the economy.

Don't start with this crap about the scary evil black man, and telling me to end my prejudice. You know what I am prejudiced against. Liberals.

Ward Connerly for President!! How do you fancy THAT black man running for president?

Ohh, you say true conservatives used to say "Love it or leave it" Well, I do love it. And that is why I am going to fight for it, to protect it against you. Anyways, what is your definition of a true conservative? What does that mean.

 

Doright,

I am generally a happy person, you are right. But I have not had much reason to be happy in the past couple of weeks, no. I don't know what exactly defines socialism and at what point we will be crossing over into that scary philosophy. And I don't think Obama will be taking us across that border. I just think his policies are very, very bad. And I tend to be a little sarcastic and exaggerate sometimes.

Socialism. Yeah, Denmark and Sweden are doing OK, but not as good as Ireland. Ireland recently lowered their corporate taxes to 13% and now have the fifth highest GDP in the world. Luxembourg is first, and that is a commonly know tax haven. Norway is second, I'll get to that in a minute. Qatar is third, and they of course have a lot of oil. Iceland is fourth, I don't know what is going on there, no comment. Ireland is fifth and switzerland, another common tax haven, is sixth. Why is there a phrase "Swiss Bank Account" when rich people talk about how much money they have? Because Switzerland has a decent tax policy that attracts accounts, and that is reflected in their stroung economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Norway has the lowest taxes in Scandanavia. And the highest GDP per capita.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922307.html

The other countries in Scandanavia can have high tax rates and succeed because the people work hard and there is low corruption. I was looking for information of the consumer price index by country, and I came across the corruption perception index by country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

These pages show that France and Germany have tax rates about equal to the USA. But they also have corruption rates about equal to the USA. and aren't Sarkozy and Merkel conservatives. And the one that has higher taxes has lower corruption.

I'll write more tomorrow.

Goodnight.

 

Yeah, umm, sorry about that, zoomie. I have been the past several days looking up information on how to retort to you, gardener, aristartle and others.

While I believe that you got your politics hat on sideways that in no way means you are an idiot and I do have to apologize for that. You have just been misinformed.

As for when I was saying I don't know where you are from, this is what I meant; I seem to have noticed a trend. People from countries like Uzbekistan, Armenia, Iran, Serbia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Cuba that understand what it's like to live under an oppresive government like America. They like America because they see that they could thrive here. Meanwhile it seems like most of the radical terrorists come from countries that are our friends. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, etc. So the point I was trying to make (You might have missed it, because you were mad at my perceived ignorance.) is that maybe you don't understand what it would be like to have the government hanging over your shoulder all the time.

I don't either, thank God.

But I know plenty of Cubans that do.

Pretty much everybody on the forums here could learnt something from another member. We are all ignorant on some topic. Thre are definately many things you could educate me on. Politics is not one of them. But you don't know me and you don't know what I know. I don't know anything about you, nor you, me. But I believe that you have been misinformed on the topic of politics. And I am sure you will return the sentiment.

Good night, Sir.

 

Zoonie, what have you written books on?