Sleeping your way to the top

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by PurplePixie, Jan 11, 2005.

  1. PurplePixie

    PurplePixie Member

    Had a great in class discussion in my Theatre History class about actress who slept their way to the top and the social/political as well as moral implications.

    What do you guys think? If everyone is doing it does that make it okay? What if sleeping your way to the top is the only way to the top avaliable to you? Is it exploiting your own body or is sexual attractivness as much of an assalable assest as intellegence or talent?
  2. WayfaringStranger

    WayfaringStranger Corporate Slave #34

    the money or fame can never replace the amount of soul you give up.
  3. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    Great reply, wayfarer.

    I agree with wayfarer.

    No, it never does in other aspects of life, and it doesn't in this situation.

    Get some skills and or education. And change your expectations. HOW could it be the ONLY way to succeed? Millions of womyn are successful without doing this soul destroying act. If they can do it, so can others. ALso, one can be successful without "getting to the top" whatever that means.

    Of course not. Intelligence and talent ARE assets. Selling your body is a desperate act, of someone who has no usable skills, or refuses to use them or is a crack addict, or who is in a terrible place in her life, or has some serious issuse related to her self worth.

    Sex should be reserved for love and lust, not to "get ahead." It isn't fair to other womyn who have the moral fortitude to NOT behave this way, either. One is selling out their sister womyn when they sleep their way to the top.

    It always pissed me off when womyn who posed naked for jerk off magazines would give the "I had to feed myself" excuse. Ever hear of a waitress job? They pay quite well. Better for the soul than trading one's body for what some define as "success," too.
  4. snelio37

    snelio37 Member

    i don't necessarily think it's the worst thing. sex is just sex to some people.
    yeah, attractiveness is an asset, and so is having the self assuredness to do flaunt it. i don't really know. to each her own.
  5. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    You don't think it destroys you in some way?
  6. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

    with respect for what is nonetheless probably very good advice, i believe the person who started the thread was merely trying to generate discussion on a topic that interested her in a class she was taking, not seeking advice or considering sex-for-success herself.

    i do think this is an excellent topic for discussion, and would like to add that, male or female, heavily investing in expensive education isn't necessarily a ticket to the top, either, especially in less corporately valued fields or very competitive fields like fine art or music. i think that more importantly is a need to reconsider, on a personal level as well as on a cultural level, what are ideas and values are concerning how we define success, and as well as our concepts of what is considered "work".
  7. superNova

    superNova Member

    well, i don't put posing naked in anywhere NEAR the same category as selling sex. but yeah, i think that when people do things like that and say "i had to feed myself" there's usually a bit more to the story, like "i had to feed myself, and well i was raped and my father used to molest me and i just really don't care about myself very much" .. sadly. i don't think too many people choose to do those things who haven't been abused in some way in their lives.

    as for using sex to get ahead... ew. gross, by men or women. i dunno if it's right or wrong because i guess that depends on your views of sex, but definitely not a viable option for me ! :)
  8. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

    i agree. i realize that my opinion regarding this matter might possibly be rather unpopular on this board, but i do not see porn as being *necessarily* exploitive. (that's not to say i believe exploitation does not occur on a massive scale in the porn industry.) as a naturist and a figure artist it saddens me the amount of fear, shame, hatred, and apathy that is directed towards the display of the nude human figure, how nudity is seen as necessarily having to do with sexuality, and how sexuality - be it gay, straight, bi, or autoerotic - is so heavily tabooed.

    one might point out that there is a difference between say, peter paul rubens' the rape of the daughters of leucippus and "debbie does everybody". and i agree, in that at least in images such as the latter the female leads are at least portrayed as willing participants. but if we examine the history of the female nude in art closer, we find that there has always been a social stigma against nude models, and that many of the great portrayals of female nudes were in fact considered to be "low" and erotic in their day, and painted with that intent, to be hung behind curtains for the titilation of male guests.

    as far as contemporary porn is concerned, i think the way it is viewed has a lot to do with the way we view male and female sexuality, and specifically masturbation. why is masturbation seen as such a despicable act? is it only male masturbation that is demonized? how is the contemporary pornographic portrayal of women in erotic situations more or less objectification than jean auguste dominique ingres grande odalisque, any more fantasy than adolphe william bouguerrau's nymphs & satyr, more ribald than jean honore fragonard's the swing, any more violent than eugene delacroix's the death of sardanapalus? and i think on a certain level it may also speak of our mortality no less than gaugin's spirit of the dead watching. certainly it lacks the fine artisitic qualities of the pieces i mentioned, and believe me, there is no argument from me there. but to condemn something for lacking artistic grace is, to my way of thinking, no better than censoring for lack of tact.

    personally, i do not see it as my place to judge or interpret some one's reasons for doing something, be it posing for hustler or for a figure drawing class, or moralizing about it over the internet. there is nothing wrong with either male or female masturbation; and if a woman wants to strut her stuff for sexual pictures, well, i may not understand or agree with her reasons, but i've no right to condemn them. for me, however, it touches upon an issue i do feel very strongly about, specifically, that of censorship. who draws the line between porn and art? who determinies what is a "legitimate" expression of sexuality, and what is exploitation. these are very murky waters indeed.

    edited to add: oh, dear. i hope i didn't just hijack the thread! :& sorry. (puts duct tape back over mouth.)
  9. ihmurria

    ihmurria fini

    well, personally I think any raises and promotions should be based on your skills and performace as they relate to your job/the promotion. Being talented in bed doesn't really relate to your job (unless your a stripper, prostitute, escort, some models, etc). I've... had a few fantasies about in-office situations (not that I've actually worked in an office, lol) but it's just a thought, nothing I'd actually do. And even then, it wouldn't be to get a promotion, it would theoretically be because it's sortof taboo and against the rules, if you will.

    I think it's rather unfair, personally. I mean, people who work hard, gets their assignments/reports in on time all the time, but someone who offers to perform oral sex on their boss gets the job instead... so not cool. I don't know to what extent it actually happens in corporate North America though.
  10. makno

    makno Senior Member

    personaly id be willing to sleep my way to the bottom !
  11. makno

    makno Senior Member

    i try not to let faliure go to my head ,
  12. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

    you're already at the bottom, justo! & of course it's going to go to your head, because hot air always rises.:p
  13. honeyhannah

    honeyhannah herbuhslovuh

    I think it depends on your frame of mind. If you can see that it is beyond your morals and you do it, of course it will ruin you, but that is because you know you are doing something, you don't want to do and something that you feel is wrong.

    If you can't morally see that it is a big deal, then for you it won't be...
  14. Super_Grrl

    Super_Grrl Crazy love

    I think it's really despicable...not so much for the person actually sleeping their way to the top, cos that's really their choice. But more for the people who want to succeed because they work their assess off and do a great job - why should they suffer just because someone puts out for the horny (and morally questionable) boss? It would be really annoying to have all the qualifications for a great job and then get passed over because you didn't suck the guy off, you know? That's unfair.
  15. Raving Sultan

    Raving Sultan Banned

    Its not fair for guys cuz most women bosses dont give you the option to sleep with them AND get a promotion.
  16. makno

    makno Senior Member

    i wished my boss would just fuck me ....hell id take a paycut .... she is hot ,,,,so is the subbossett .......theres so many pretty girls workin at and walkin through my store ....its almost painfully distracting !!!
  17. Crystaleyez

    Crystaleyez Member

    I just can't wrap my mind around how people can do that. I've regretted sleeping with people for resons of pure lust let alone to further my career.
    On the other hand I am comfortable enough with my body and my sexuality that I used to pose for art classes and there are some tasteful nude photos of me out there. I think thats alot different tho.
  18. artful_dodger

    artful_dodger Member

    Ehh... having spent a few years around adult entertainment, first as a model, then as a writer and photographer, I just can't agree with you.

    A whole lot of the time, it's actually, "I had to feed myself, and I didn't feel like putting in the work or effort that waitressing would require."

    Sometimes, not often, but enough, it's "I had to feed myself, and this is a fun and creatively satisfying way to do it."

    We all trade our bodies, our efforts, for money, and sometimes for some small fame, even if that's just a good position and reputation in a company. And, I'll tell you... the three weeks I spent temping in the human resources department of an Enron subsidiary was a whole lot more soul-blackening than anything I've ever done in adult.

    If anything, my experiences as a model, being self-employed and always freelance made me determined that I never want to work for someone else again. You get a real feeling of ownership of self. I'm not alone in this. I know so many women who went on to start businesses, from clothing shops, to coffee houses, to cleaning services to hospices.

    Random note: my personal experience is all fetish/pin-up related. I have done no hard-core porn myself, and have had very little exposure to it, so I can't speak in an informed manner about that sector of the business. Not a clue whether it's different over there.

    I know that this is off of the "sleep your way to the top" subject, apologies for that.
  19. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    Yep, that is why I said "Skills and or education." With neither, your options for supporting yourself are small.

    Nova you made a good point, which I totally beleive, about womyn in porn and jerk off mags being past victims of sexual abuse. Some people were so badly hurt when children, that they think their ONLY worth is through sex. This is sad, but very true for many. Course, some of us were victims and chose a different path. I think honing your skills education and experience is the best way to beat a past abuser.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and posing as an art model is completely different than sleeping with your boss or "modeling" in jerk off mags.

    The point, which many have brought up, that is really unfair for others who REALLY WORK in a certain position, and are overlooked because someone else was willing to give a blow job is a really valid one. Just like sleeping with someone else's man, you hurt other womyn when you do this. And and Sultan pointed out, it isn't fair for the men who are also in line for promotion and wouldn't even be considered for "blow job promotions."

    I reserve my opinion that sex is for love and lust. JMO. Think about your fellow womyn (and men, too) before you fuck without regard to them. Think of the butterfly effect, everything you do effects everything else. You fuck your boss, other womyn and other men are put into positions that suck, because they were not willing to stoop as low as you were. (no pun intended.) Womyn have worked for DECADES to be accepted in the business world, the art world, the music world ect, to be accepted on their own work and merits. Fucking your boss puts all womyn BACK into the dark ages. It isn't just YOU when you partake in activities like this. You hurt the way some men view womyn (or strengthen their "all chicks are good for is fucking, anyway, and she proved it.") and you hurt other womyn and men who are actually doing WELL at their job.
  20. artful_dodger

    artful_dodger Member

    My, that's a wide brush you've got there, Maggie. There was a really interesting bit that someone, can't for the life of me think of who, posted on stereotypes this morning. Maybe you oughtta check it out.

    In my personal experience -- not my knee-jerk, uninformed opinion, but what I have personally observed, through years of interaction and study -- a history of sexual abuse is no more common in adult workers than in any other segment of society.

    And, sleeping with you boss is entirely different from modeling -- I find the quote-marks completely inappropriate, btw -- for an adult magazine or website. In fact, screwing your boss is looked down on just as much or more in the adult industry.

    I think that it's best to keep in mind that feminism, like most movements and ideologies, is not a monolith. Otherwise, how could women as diverse as Heather Corinna and Andrea Dworkin embrace the label of "feminist"?

    I have more to say on this subject, but, one, it would be a serious hijack of the original post and two, I'm a little too angry and dismayed to post well right now.

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