Shut down margarine production!

Discussion in 'Protest' started by Bilby, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. filthyrich

    filthyrich Member

    Butter can be clarified, which I believe makes it (unsaturated?) good fat. Good oils are grape seed oil, nut oils like almond, walnut. No oil is good after awhile due to oxydation (gone rancid). Apparently, acording to a fella named Doug Kaufman, nearly all dis-ease is due to mycotoxins, and these are the byproducts of molds. Molds that we breathe and eat. It is true that margarine is a killer, and should be avoided, even in small doses. Check out oil of (wild ) oregano, olive leaf extract, and cinnamon(water soluble)
     
  2. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    For many years I too thought I had lactose intollerance. To cut a long story short it turns I am not lactose intollerant but am highly allergic to skimmed milk or anything made with it. Even a small amount of skimmed milk gives me haemorrhoids, but consumming butter cures me. I am not suggesting what has worked for me will necessarily work for, but it could be worth a try.

    What is wrong with margarine? In the factory, the vegetable oil is heated to a very high temperature until it goes black. As such even if quality vegetable oils are used, the goodness is destroyed. Even so such margarine is sold as a health food.
     
  3. streamlight

    streamlight Member

    They probably heat it because its necessary to make margarine.
     
  4. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Some people don't know how to think for themselves but instead fill their minds with dogma.
    I disagree. This is perhaps one of the few facets of life that is a black and white issue. If you have any scientific references, I will gladly look them up.
    That is one theory. There is another theory that high blood cholesterol levels are a symptom of heart disease, not a cause of heart disease. If you can prove me wrong, I will run naked through the woods for a minimum of ten minutes.See also
    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2263246#post2263246

    Are you referring to my sig? I used to change it every now and then, but so many people liked it, I kept it. Maybe you are right I should change it. Signatures are a bit like messages on T-shirts. Seeing you have just changed your sig, I decided to change mine.

    If you are talking about threads I counted five threads that had anything to do with butter or margarine but were all different. I never said that butter was the only alternative to margarine. See point 7 of the starter post. This thread was about getting production shut down, not margarine per se.

    If you are talking about replies to give up smoking, I would agree that I have put up the same answer many times over but to the same recurring question! I have already suggested to Old Crone that all the giving up smoking threads be merged together, essentially duplicated replies be deleted and made into a sticky. She declined my suggestion.

    I have a suggestion for you. If you are tired of people especially ex-veg*ns questioning the wisdom of being a veg*n why not put up a sticky suggesting any such threads be posted in the Environment, Health, Ethics or Hippies forums and the Vegetarian forum only being a support forum.
    Fair enough.
    Not so sure about that.
    BTW could I ask when the last time you had a big laugh?
     
  5. SDS

    SDS Member

    No as I pointed out in many cases it's not a choice because they won't sell you their insurance because of pre-existing medical conditions. And many people can't afford health insurance in any case. It's a completely unsatisfactory system which needs to be replaced by one that is equitable.

    For everyone's information by the way butter contains no cholesterol! Neither do hydrogenated oil products. But butter is very high in saturated fat which leads to clogged arteries. Both saturated fat and hydrogenated oils are strongly correlated with atherosclerosis. Also you need to know that it is not EATING cholesterol so much that plugs up arteries (for example shrimp are high in cholesterol), rather it is eating foods that cause the human body to MANUFACTURE high levels of cholesterol in the bloodstream that are bad. Thus fatty foods (like butter) which contain no cholesterol still lead to high cholesterol levels in the bloodstream. Eating FAT, not so much cholesterol, is what raises cholesterol levels. And hydrogenated oils are felt to be an even worse than butter. Worst of all is smoking, only a few cigarettes a day somehow doubles the rate of blockage formation.

    Atherosclerosis (the artery blocking process) starts in teenage years so to minimize disease it's a matter of keeping clear of the wrong foods over decades to prevent development of significant lesions. A certain amount of the wrong thing over decades can lead to real problems down the road.

    Levels of cholesterol in the bloodstream are very strongly associated with these blockages. As someone above pointed out a recent study shows that one drug (rosuvastatin) can actually reverse plaque.

    They found out that when statin drugs are given to persons with cholesterol levels considered to be "normal" -- even in these people lives are saved. Hence guidelines for lowering cholesterol levels were recently made more stringent.
     
  6. TokeTrip

    TokeTrip Senior Member

    I avoid margarine on the basis that butter tastes better.
     
  7. MattInVegas

    MattInVegas John Denver Mega-Fan

    Pardon me Bilby. But I want to say respectfully, and on topic:

    As a Heart Patient with TWO heart attacs under my belt, Today, they can, and DO make margerine that is safe for me to use. It's all in the oils used to make it.
     
  8. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Actually it is not hydronated oils that are bad for you per se but the fact that (1) essential fatty acids are destroyed in the process (2) worse that trans fats are created as a result.

    Hitherto 1970 trans were labled as saturated fats. You can find old scientific studies claiming that saturated fat is unhealthy, when such studies showed that trans fats are unhealthy but were labled as saturated fats. See also
    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2263246#post2263246
    Ok if it is not hydronated, who are such margarines solidified?
     
  9. SDS

    SDS Member

    There are two kinds of unsaturated oils depending upon the configuration of the hydrogen atoms. If both hydrogens are on the same side of the carbon it's called "cis" and if they're on opposite sides it's called "trans":

    cis: [Sorry it turns out the computer won't maintain the config I enter.]

    trans:[same apology]

    And here is what they call "saturated": [same apology]


    I've only shown a 2 carbon chain. In reality these oils/fats have longer chains.

    Polyunsaturated molecules tend to be liquid at room temp. So they have to artificially partially "saturate" them with more hydrogens to make them solid at room temp for products like Crisco and margarines. This artificial process yields the "trans" configuration which is toxic to the arteries. I have never heard that it's the destruction of other oils that causes the problem but there certainly could be things I don't know.

    So how do they get Smart Balance solid at room temp without hydrogenating it? They use palm kernel oil, a natural saturated fat (saturated like butter, but unlike butter of course not of animal origin) which consequently is solid at room temp. They blend it with some olive soybean and canola oil. This particular blend when used as directed I understand is reported to actually improve one's cholesterol profile, the ratio of good HDL to bad LDL cholesterol. I'm not pushing their product necessarily but you can read more at www.earthbalance.net.

    (EarthBalance is made by the same firm as SmartBalance.)
     
  10. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Well palm oil is nutritionally fine but much of it is grown on land that was once forest that was once home to orangutans. Going slightly off topic here but I like Peter Singer's idea of all the great apes having equal legal status as the rest of mankind.


    Some olive oil is ok if it is cold pressed. Soybean, canola, corn and cottonseed oil are all bad because they are extracted at high temperatures with chemical solvents and then are further processed. This also results in trans fats in the finished product. Contrast this with dripping or lard where the fatty bits of deal animal are boiled up, the liquid strained off , the liquid cooled the fat strained off re-melted for shaping and packaged. The end result a miniscule amount of trans fat. There is currently no scientific evidence that the miniscule amount of trans fat in meat, dairy and animal fats is in any way unhealthy. Look up wikipedia.
     
  11. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    My condolences. Are you still a smoker? I have revised my answer on to the most recent giving up smoking thread.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152650
     
  12. gary.newelluk

    gary.newelluk Member

    You should see what cheese does to me... I must be one of the few people alive never to have eaten a pizza.

    I'll continue to use Flora and see what happens. Its high in saturates and low in polyunsaturates you know... whatever the fuck all that means.
     
  13. SDS

    SDS Member

    Animal husbandry in many circumstances is environmentally unfriendly and as time goes on I'm relatively less into dead ones.
     
  14. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Well if you found a natural cure for your kidney stones (sounds nasty and I symapathise) would you not tell the rest of the world it at least worked for you, especially if what you found was in defience of convential wisdom? Is it not good news I found a cure for haemorrhoids, bi-polar and giving up smoking?

    BTW you double posted what I am replying to.

    I find it tiring to keep hearing about how bad saturated fat is for you. I think it would be better to if such energies were directed at trans fats, would you not agree?
     
  15. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Can be but not necessarily. Here is my age old quesion. If using synthetic fertilizers is bad for the environment and the alternative is to use animal by products, how are going to grow organic food without animals being part of the equation? Even if you could what would we do for vehicle tyres?
     
  16. SDS

    SDS Member

    I'm not an expert in this area. But obviously there are ways to grow healthy plants without synthetic fertilizers (e.g crop rotation, symbiotic relationships) and without killing animals (manure).

    Rubber or course is a tree derived product.
     
  17. Bilby

    Bilby Freerangertarian Staff Member Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    All those things are good but if you use manure you are still essentially supporting the killing of animals. In any case the only manure that really contains any nutrients is chicken manure. To keep chickens you still need to feed them besides all the foraging they do and chicken feed is made with bonemeal.
    Well tyres have gelatine as an ingredient.
     
  18. SDS

    SDS Member

    Not necessarily. But it doesn't even matter that much because I'm not an absolutist on any of this stuff. I'm just saying we could do a lot better than we're currently doing on most of these issues.

    We could do a lot more natural stuff if it weren't for OVERPOPULATION. Let's "Get ourselves back to the Garden" this planet was "meant" to be.

    But let me get back to my major points in the context of this thread.

    First Point.

    If you're on the TV show "Jeopardy" (don't know if they have it in Australia) next week and they ask you the #1 Killer in the USA bar none the answer IS ...anticipation!!! ...:

    SMOKING!!!!

    Second Point.

    If you're on "Jeopardy" next week and they ask you the #1 Killing DISEASE in the USA in smokers AND nonsmokers the answer IS ... (anticipation)...:

    PLUGGED ARTERIES!!! (Atherosclerosis)

    Third Point.

    Atheroscerosis is made "tons worse" by smoking only a few a day.

    AND it's made worse by trans fats.

    So READ LABELS.

    And if it says HYDROGENATED then DON'T BUY IT!
     
  19. just a note, when somthing is "Hydrogenated", it means that there are no double or tripple bonds between the crbons, ex. c-c=c=c-c, where the dashes are bonds. when somthing is hydrogentated, it is solid at room temprature, so its true that margarin is hydrogenated, so is butter, and lard. the only difrence is with margrine, the hydrogen has to be pumped in.
     
  20. SDS

    SDS Member

    StaticHippie when I'm talking "hydrogenated" in the context of margarine or reading labels or this thread what I mean is "artificially hydrogenated" by an industrial process where the hydrogen is "pumped in" like you said. Actually this results in partial hydrogenation where there are still some double bonds left with hydrogens added on in the trans configuration and that's what's apparently toxic to the arteries.

    It is true that butter is "hydrogenated" in the sense of being fully saturated with hydrogen atoms -- in its natural state, not as the result of an industrial process. Being fully hydrogenated, no double bonds are left and there are no hydrogen atoms in the trans configuration. These fully saturated fats like butter are still not good for one's arteries (there was lots of atherosclerosis in Finland because of eating dairy products containing saturated fat as I understand it), but apparently they are not as bad as the industrially and artificially partially hydrogenated trans fats.

    To keep it simple, "hydrogenated" in the context we're talking about means industrially hydrogenated. So just read labels and if it says "hydrogenated" it means industrially hydrogenated and so don't buy it.
     

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