Should the House bring Impeachment charges against Donald Trump?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by MeAgain, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Should the House bring Impeachment charges against Donald Trump?
    Let's start by reviewing what impeachment is.
    In the U.S. the House of Representatives has the sole power of impeachment of a sitting president by a simple majority vote based on stated articles of impeachment. The articles are based on
    Only the House can determine what constitutes treason, bribery, high crimes or misdemeanors. They are what the House says they are.

    Once impeached the Senate tries the president. The Chief Justice of the United States, John Roberts in this case, presides.
    Conviction would result from a two thirds vote by the Senate. The president would then be removed from office.
    The Senate may also impose other penalties such as barring him from future political office and the president would still be libel for criminal prosecution.
    If a two thirds vote is not attained, the president is acquitted.

    In the past there have been two impeachments of a sitting president. Both by Republicans against Democrats.
    The first was Andrew Johnson, who was accused of high crimes and misdemeanors for basically carrying out Abraham Lincoln's plan of leniency toward the South after the civil war.
    He was acquitted.

    The second was of Bill Clinton. He was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice resulting from sexual scandals. Many who voted for his impeachment had their own sexual scandals resulting in cries of hypocrisy.
    The Senate found that Clinton did not commit perjury or obstruct justice as both charges lacked merit. The main charge was of lying to the Grand Jury. The lying charges were dropped as Clinton's famous "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is" statement was correct as he was not currently having an affair and his statement about not having a sexual relationship was also correct as the question was imprecise as it didn't define what a sexual relationship was. Clinton was truthfully answering that he had never had sexual intercourse as legally defined.

    Nixon was never impeached as he resigned before the process could begin as both the Republicans and Democrats agreed that he needed to be removed from office.

    So much for that.
    Next we'll look at whether Trump should be impeached, but I have to go do something at the moment.
     
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  2. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Yes I would like that; but, I want to see Nadler, Cummings , and Schiff get some results back from their subpoenas first. The stonewalling by Trump sure looks like an effort to hide criminal activity.
     
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  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    On what grounds could the House impeach Trump?

    First let's remember that the House and Senate don't have to prove anything to impeach and remove the president from office.
    There is no need to bring or prove any criminal action or intent.

    So, keeping that in mind what reason(s) might the House find to begin an impeachment hearing?
    Let's start with the Mueller report.
    1. Mueller found that Trump did not criminally conspire with the Russians, but he did seek to have them help him get elected.
    Remember no crime need be proven.
    2. Mueller found ten instances of Trump attempting to obscure justice and asked Congress to investigate them.

    The following are some other proposed resolutions for impeachment:
    3. His oath of office makes him responsible for the deeds of his appointees and for his responsible management of his office.
    4. He has failed to protect the electorate by refusing to believe the Russians interfered with the election.
    5. He may have violated the Emoluments Clause.
    6. He disclosed classified information to Russia.
    7. He has not upheld the moral tradition of the presidency.
    8. He has undermined the freedom of the press.
    9. He has undermined the independence of the federal judiciary.
    10. He has associated the Presidency with White Nationalism, Neo-Nazism and Hatred" and is "Inciting Hatred and Hostility.
    11. Michael Cohen has implicated him in witness tampering, campaign finance violations, threats against his family, and other charges.
    12. Perfidy
    13.
    And that's all I can think of at the moment

    Again no proof of criminal activity need by proven in any of the above, only that due to just one of these things he is unfit for office.
     
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  4. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    It's starting to sound like Congress might put Mnuchin and Rittig in jail … scoff laws don't you know.
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The dangers of Impeachment for the parties.

    First the Democrats.
    To start with if the House were to impeach it would be largely due to the Democrats. Remember the Democrats have no experience when it comes to impeachment, they have never initiated one against a president.
    On the plus side they wouldn't loose any of Trump's base support, they'll never get that anyway. It's very clear that his base will support him come hell or high water.
    The main peril lies in the Independent vote. Will the Independents view this as an attempt to remove a legitimate president and not swing their votes in a Democratic direction, or even be persuaded to vote Republican? At the least will some Independent votes vote Independent instead of Democratic?
    As some Independents like to point out the Democrats don't have a perfect candidate so they'll vote Independent, or not vote at all. They seem to feel that Trump is better than in imperfect Democrat.

    Now the Republicans.
    If Trump were to be impeached, the Senate, dominated by Republicans will not vote to remove him from office. Only one Republican, Mitt Romney, has even spoken out against Trump since the release of the Muller report, and he's too scared to do anything but talk.
    So would the public support the Democrats and punish the Republicans at the polls for failing to Remove Trump after he's impeached?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The plus side of Impeachment for the parties.

    It's basically opposite of the above.
    I think impeachment slightly favors the Democrats. When Clinton was impeached his poll numbers went up, so it seemed to help the Democrats.
    But in the next election the Republicans took the presidency, admittedly after the Florida fiasco, so the Republicans weren't punished for their impeachment of Clinton.

    Would the Democrats do any worse?
     
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  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The effect on the nation.

    If Trump is Impeached by the House, he will not be removed from office by the senate...at least at this time and in the foreseeable future.
    So why Impeach?

    Trump is facing some serious charges. If he were not president he would be in jail at this moment. The DOJ and Mueller have made this clear. They will not indict a sitting president for any crime.
    By DOJ standards the president is not bound by the rule of law. He can do anything he wants.
    Mueller knows this so he handed off the charges of obstruction, at least ten of them, to the House as he can't do anything about them.
    Both the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General are protecting Trump.

    So if an Impeachment hearing is not held all future presidents will become above the law by precedent. They will be free to cavort with foreign powers, obstruct justice, lie to the public, etc., etc. with no fear of being held accountable.
     
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  8. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    I do think the Democrats need to keep fighting hard to keep Trump accountable. They need to press on with the subpoena process and all the investigations. Trump need to be held accountable. If the Democrats don't do that, they'll look weak. I say hammer the Repukes hard.
     
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  9. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    If we don't move to impeach him we send the message that this is not an impeachable offense. If we do impeach him and he beats it that gives him a yuuuge mandate. Mueller advised that we don't have sufficient evidence to charge him, so I say we follow his advice, let the dark cloud of suspicion hang over Trump's head for the rest of his term and then vote him out. Imagine his supporters rioting after that, it would be funny as hell.
     
  10. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

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    I don't find terrorism funny. And if it comes to that it's liklely to be violent attacks simialr to the ones we already see from Trump supporters in the media. Guns are that culture's solution to anything and the 2nd amendment is a moral high ground only they can use properly. They will see honor and glory in killing Democrats.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  11. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Good point. When I talked about them rioting I wasn't thinking about them taking to the streets with guns, just your typical riots with windows smashed, cars overturned, fires and looting. Granted that wouldn't be funny to the people who are living where the riots take place, but imagine the press interviewing the rioting pissed-off Trump supporters!

    "This sucks! How we sposed to make America great again now?"
     
  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    I agree. It's obvious that impeachment won't bring removal, because the Republicans who control the House are cowards. The effort to impeach would simply be making a statement, and would easily be dismissed as partisan and weak. I do think the House committees should press forward in following the leads of the Mueller report and assuring full disclosure. Congress and the American people have a right to know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  13. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    We shouldn't avoid impeachment. It feels sort of like the arguments for not impeaching are primarily because we lose out in 2020. I don't know that 2020 should be a real factor.

    I watch a lot of news. Because of that it all feels like a bit of a charade. Everything is spin and nothing seems to stick to President Trump.

    That being what it is, I think there is still a shred of decency in many of our good politicians. If they can manage to demonstrate that, the public will side with them. In so far as public opinion is concerned, I don't think it's going to matter all that much in the end. If there isn't a black and white impeachable offense the senate is inclined to side with the president.

    What I mean is, I don't know that it will work, but that shouldn't stop us. I say go ahead and go through the motions.

    I wish they would get on with it though. I say impeach because he is unfit to govern. He lied too much.
     
  14. Wow. You tar everyone with the same brush.
    You may be dangerous :grin:
     
  15. SouthPaw

    SouthPaw Members

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    Good grief. This isn't the conspiracy forum.
     
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  16. SouthPaw

    SouthPaw Members

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    Republicans don't control the House.
     
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  17. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    That’s odd, I don’t recall an incident where such an thing like that with guns occurred.

    However, this was an actual event where a Bernie supporter took glory and tried killing his foes with a gun:

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2017/06/14/homepage2/james-hodgkinson-profile/index.html?r=https://duckduckgo.com/&rm=1

    Now, I could just as easily use this as an excuse to paint all Bernie supporters with the same brush that you paint trump supporters. But I won’t do that because it ain’t right.
     
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  18. hotwater

    hotwater Senior Member Lifetime Supporter

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    IMPEACH THAT SOB

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Of course they don't. They control the Senate. That's what I meant to say. Same difference. The House initiates impeachment but a two-thirds vote of the Senate is necessary for removal. Glad you caught my mistake.
     
  20. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

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    I would like to see trump removed from office, but. . . . . that is not going to happen.
    the dems need to attack trump's policies, and show the american people how said policies negatively effect them
    I would like to see barr impeached.
     

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