Should Guns be Outlawed in the U.S.A?

Spoon? Fork?

 

Indie

Of course you did.

This is the same –no alternative – argument

Now I’ve often asked do pro-gunners want guns out of the hands of criminals and the most common answer I got is – yes, but then present the ‘there is no alternative’ argument – the second bit turning the yes effectively into no – meaning they do want guns in the hands of criminals.

The same – Americans are murderous – argument

This is exactly what I’m trying to highlight - the view of many Americans of their fellow citizens - that they’re so violent and murderous that they just want to kill, kill, kill.

Same – demand – argument.

The question is why is there a demand?

*

I really would wish that people read the posts.

 

Roo

You may have responded but that doesn’t mean you addressed the questions or seeming flaws in your arguments, because I don’t think you did. If you think I’m wrong please point out where you think you did.

For example you still have not produced the legislation you said you could draft.

And the only reason to bring up the fact this is from ‘weeks’ ago is to say your views have changed, have they and if so how?

LOL – do please read the posts –

To repeat – I’m not against the law abiding and responsible owning guns I’m asking why they desire them.

But as pointed out –

Here is a short version –

Think about US history, did the Native Americans that fought back against the treaty breaking US government get the support of the American citizenry? What if the US citizens of Japanese decent had resisted the unconstitutional internment imposed on them after Pearl Harbour and had shot at the police, do you think they would have got general and popular support? What about those hauled in front of McCarthy or the un-American committees, would Americans have rallied to them if they had refused to go before such witch hunts and opened fire on those that came to take them?

Here is the long version –

Can guns save you from suppression?
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...&postcount=217

LOL – ‘you are either with us or against us’ you either wear a white hat or a black hat’ etc etc…

The same simplistic either/or mentality I’ve highlighted before that gets in the way of understanding anything that isn’t in a 100% agreement with your viewpoint.

 

Dark Sugar

Again I had to laugh this is basic evasion – you haven’t got a counter argument so you are using phoney righteous indignation as an evasion tactic to leave. Fine leave put the criticisms of your ideas will not go away.

WOW – I’ve been promoted to be a spokesman for the whole of Britain, and since you are the one promoting me I hope you’re going to pay my wages in this new position?

Again this is misdirection you are hoping all the stuff about ‘Britain’ will distract people from noticing you haven’t replied to any questions or addressed any of the criticisms.

Oh this had us hooting with laughter you think the UK is a socialist country, oh go on please give us another laugh and explain why?

Oh I had to walk away from the computer for a moment I was laughing so hard. You have not only promoted me to the position of spokesperson for Britain you now think I’m personally responsible for the whole of British history and culture?

Why are you proud of being a “gun toting culture” it seems rather juvenile?

 

OWB

So you believe you are at war? That you are part of a citizen’s resistance force that is fighting…well…is fighting against…well what?

Are you saying that you feel you are under occupation by Nazis?

You think your government are Nazis that your fellow citizens are Nazis?

This is one of the most bizarre arguments that has arisen in recent discussions I must admit.

Advertisers us fear all the time to sell their products – your children will get sick if you don’t us our cleaner – for example, other try to sell their political ideology through fear – the Jews will take over the world if you don’t vote for us.

Telling people that they can have a gun or not but - what will they do if they don’t have a gun when that drug addicted psycho comes through their door and rapes and tortures their wife and child before their very eyes – is selling guns.

Cleaner advertiser - it is a possibility but I don't say it to get people to "buy" our cleaner.

Extremist Politician - it is a possibility but I don't say it to get people to vote for our party.

I’m asking – why would you think that was going to happen?

You seem to be implying that - having to watch you wife and child being raped and murdered before your very eyes - is such a common occurrence that it wasn’t a matter of if, but when - that it was bound to happen at some point in an Americans lifetime.

Now I fear for my wife and child also but my concerns are more mundane and are about accidents and illness, being the victim of a crime is not high on the list and the idea that I would be forced to watch my wife and child being raped and tortured is very remote so remote that I think it rather sick to think that pro-gunner like you have it so close to the forefront of you minds.

The same – there is no alternative – argument

I’ve often said that I’ve got nothing against the law abiding and responsible owning a gun, but that doesn’t mean I’m against gun control measures because the flip side of that view is that I’m against the criminal minded and irresponsible gaining access to firearms of any kind.

Now I’ve often asked do pro-gunners want guns out of the hands of criminals and the most common answer I got is – yes, but that is impossible – the second bit turning the yes effectively into no – meaning they do want guns in the hands of criminals.

The ‘impossible’ argument is the idea that there is no alternative; nothing can be done to get guns out of the hands of the criminally minded.

But many things could be done to limit criminal access to guns, it is just that many pro-gunners object to them, it is not impossible it is just seems to me that they want to make it look like it is impossible.

And that is the problem – you think bringing about a better society is peripheral to me it is central because if people lived in a better, nicer and safer, society they probably wouldn’t be so frightened and feel the need to own a gun as protection against it.

 

Pot? Pan?

 

To what end?

 

guns are made to kill. sheer genius. so what. only a total vegan can use this argument without being an hypocrite , and even if you are, does not mean shit to the meat eater. ya know ? oh, in the case you dont know there is also people around that just digs piercing paper and tin cans and clays or shooting to make a living or needs protection from thugs and wild animals so all this hype for gun ban is just overbearing people in action, trying to cut the freedom of others for a questionable desire of power. youre sick do ya know that? everyone who wants more restrictions, more walls built around the original freedom, no matter if this times it comes to drugs, guns, booze, sodomy, gay marriage, pornography , tobacco or anything else to be banned, should just go take a walk and a good old style fuck , or a tab of acid if he/she needs it, you law obsessed, control freak fascists, failed cops, striving to cut our freedoms, i cant stand you and the blinkers you wear. oh, calling yourselves hippies also does not mean shit... no real hippie would never ask for a ban of any kind. change happens inside of people and not by law, you should have learned that. so i am stepping out of this thread made for the bigot. phew. :banghead:

 

I haven’t answered your questions because I don’t wish to. I find your whole line of questioning to be far too judgmental and not based in fact. You are spewing an opinion over and over and I’m really done with it. Clearly from the legislature in NYC and in other places across the U.S. people who enjoy guns are not the only people in America so why would you take issue with my generalization in regard to the UK, when you yourself have been grouping all Americans into one pot. It really is a sad thing that a man of 50 is so unable to adapt to a debate. You keep going back to ur basic point of fear like a child who puts his fingers in his ears and relentlessly repeats himself. Much like your mental development at 5 yrs old, I’m done.

 

Balbus, this isn't about US not reading, it's about you not reading.

You have yet to launch a succesful attack against any of the arguments you don't like. You just keep defining the argument, as though that somehow says something against it.

you keep pretending criminals somehow won't make guns, when we have law abiding members coming forward to talk about it

You keep pretending the fact that this can be a dangerous place with dangerous people is somehow an invalid argument for being able to defend oneself

You keep pretending that killing without a gun takes more murderous intent, which is pure bullshit, because anti-gun people, including yourself, keep saying that guns are designed to kill. Well yeah, they are, so if you have one you understand that it's only purpose is to kill, and using it takes a LOT more desire to kill than to hit someone with something not meant to kill them.

You keep directly saying that only scared people have guns, which is neither true nor a valid argument if it WAS true.

You keep acting as though breaking down one of the fundamental guards of freedom in the US, the bill of rights (already under sustained assault on other facets) will not hurt freedom, because you can't understand that giving up a right held equal to other vital rights, and that enables one to protect those other rights, endangers those other rights very much (or maybe you don't think that freedom requires freedom of religion, speech, freedom from search/seizure, self incrimination and the like?)

The fact that something is not possible, is not right, or whatever else, is not some argument to be brushed off.

Categorizing and naming the arguments that you have not successfully argued against and then spitting out the name when someone mentions it does NOT defeat it, it simply reminds everyone that you haven't been able to defeat it.

(however, I've been skimming your posts for most of the thread, because they're dreadfully long and don't say anything NEW, just the same "well you're scared, and I don't have a good handle on logic", and when I try to quote you, it's a confusing waste of my time because your posts are full of jumbled BBcode jibberish, where you DID NOT NEED FONT TAGS and shit like that)

*edit* the fact that I'm arguing for guns, but I don't own any guns and am from a family that owns no guns seems to go against balbus' claims that we're all just scared, addicted to violence, etc.....

 

This thread is loaded with personal opinion and no supported facts from anything.

 

Dark sugar

As I’ve said fake righteous indignation as an evasion tactic to get out of answering questions you find difficult to answer.

Judgement - is another way of saying conclusion, opinion, observation, evaluation, and yes that’s what I’ve produced the thing is you are not putting up anything to counter my conclusions.

Why is that?

Again an opinion you seem unable to counter.

Again rather than jumping to conclusions on faulty evidence why not actually read my posts?

I have made it clear on many occasions that I’m not “grouping all Americans into one pot”. If you read my posts you’d find many qualifications such as ‘some’ or ‘many’ (not all Americans) I have also pointed out on many occasions that I’m basing my opinion on the statements of ‘pro-gunners’ and if you’d actually read my general theory you’d know it contained the statement – “of course not all Americans have this viewpoint and not everyone has it at the same intensity of feeling but I believe enough do to make the viewpoint prevalent.”

Yes fine, but it is not me that is hasn’t answered the questions or is refusing to address the criticisms levelled at their ideas, now is it?

LOL – loved the post, I’ll file it away as a classic piece of evasion.

 

Roo

I think I’ve covered the arguments but please if you think I haven’t you only have to point them out. I try to read the posts (I often re-read them to make sure I’ve understood them) and often it involves research and thought before I reply.

As to the points you raise below, I have covered them but if you are only “skimming” by post you probably missed them.

But unlike you I don’t mind to repeat them and even give further explanation – maybe this time you will read them and give them at least a little bit of thought rather than just ‘skimming’ them so you actually address what they say rather than what you think they say.

 

(one)

In the UK home made guns are not a big problem, because there isn’t the demand. Why do you think the US would be different?

I have no problem with the law abiding and responsible owning guns so if someone has to make a gun it would seem to indicate they are not law abiding and responsible and have been rejected from owning a gun legally.

The thing is why are they so desperate to have a gun?

 

(two)

But why do you think it such a dangerous place and so filled with dangerous people who are just waiting to hurt and kill?

Just saying as many seem to – that it just is – is not an answer.

If you had an infected wound on your arm would you shrug your shoulder and say – that is just how it is – and then when it goes gangrenous having to have the arm cut off or die of blood poisoning or would it be better to find a cure?

 

(three- a)

 

(four)

Again please read what I’ve said not reply on what you think I’ve said (on the basis of a skim read).

I’ve said that I’ve got nothing against the law abiding and responsible owning guns. When people have mentioned having guns for hunting or keeping down vermin on their farms, and I’ve pointed out on numerous occasions that I’m ok with that. But that isn’t how many pro-gunners present the issue or promote guns. Many use the defence argument either against crime or against the ‘government’.

It is this argument that seems to be based in fear. I mean people talk of having to watch their wives and children been raped before their eyes or of their government wanting to enslave them and the only conclusion is that they are afraid of the society they live in.

 

(five)

Again please read my posts and try just a little to understand what they’re saying?

As I’ve pointing out the Bill of Rights has already been circumvented or ignored on a number of occasions and the American public have not just gone along with it they have on many occasions supported it.

As I say in my general theory – “Many pro-gunners seem to feel they are the final arbiters, the ones that would defend American liberty, uphold the US constitution. So what were they doing when their fellow citizens rights were been curtailed in such open fashion and the Constitution trashed?”
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=6708365&postcount=217

As I’ve said many times I think there are some fundamental flaws with the US political system that I don’t think gun ownership is going to tackle. And when I hear some in the tea party vaguely threatening that they are armed and that they will defend the ‘American way’ (as they see it) I wonder if some pro-gunners might not be the problem rather than a solution.

 

But you have already claimed that you are in yourself a deadly weapon who doesn’t need a gun to maim or kill (You’ve said you preferred weapon would be a combat knife).

And you seem to display the same fear as many other pro-gunners. It is just that unlike you, many haven’t got the confidence you have that they would be able to tackle the kind of situation they fear been in, without being armed with a gun.

 

What in the world are you talking about?

Accept for the word Nazi, your comment has absolutely nothing in common with the comment I made.

Please, if you do not understand a comment, feel free to just say I don't understand what you are getting at, rather than just taking pot shots in the dark.