Shaivism vs. Vaishnavism

The only things that people can agree on with scripture are the things that are consistant in all scriptures...like that there is God and our objective is reach Him (in whatever expression He is in...even if it is broad or narrow), to love one another, to harm none, ect.

...and even then there's confusion....because people insist that their way is best.... lol

 

The fact that others (advaitins) flourish doesn't explain why dualists flourish too. Numerical superiority means nothing at all. If it did, we'd all be catholics as that is the world's biggest religion.

But when you say a) dvaita is not a man made deviation, and b) it is inadvisable to twist the upanishads to support their position, that sounds very patronizing - and a bit self-contradictory, as though actually, you think only the advaita interpretation is correct and the rest are 'twisted'.

As for the two being the same but from a different standpoint - I can't see that at all. They are entirely different and contradict each other on every main point.
Lets just take the world and its reality or unreality - a total contradiction there between Shankara and both Ramanuja and Madhva.

 

Up to a point I agree - but there are other scriptures, Buddhist and Taoist that don't mention God at all............

 

Then, by your reasoning, it would be a good idea for you to turn to the Bible and accept what it says, verbatim.

If Advaita works for you, great...it's a lane on the highway to Krishna.

What I meant...they were breakaway in the sense that they established Dvaitin sampradayas which didn't previously exist, and these became important and lasting voices in the body of Indian spiritual thought.

Why silly? I never claimed that the Advaitin sampradayas had been overwhelmed by Vaisnavism...I'm aware that Advaita is very much the prominent Hindu philosophy both in India and the west. All I said was that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was very successful in his own time, and that Vaisnavism now flourishes worldwide.

I'm not capable of "twisting the Upanishads", because I don't know Sanskrit. It would take an accomplished Sanskrit scholar to convincingly do so.

My original statment, many posts back, was simply that there are basic aspects of Sanatana-dharma that we can all concur on...and now we're back to the old Advaitin vs. Dvaitin controversy, which I had no intention of reviving.

 

::nods:: But they both believe in reconnecting with something though...? For Taoists, its the Way... for Buddhists....you are looking to reach nirvana? Yes? I don't know...I think its still similar...they all are still telling us that there is something more...

 

I haven't been in India, so I can't really comment on the situation there.
Here in the west, I'm not sure you're right Spook. Since SP's mission began in the west back in the 60's, I think Krishna Consciousness has actually become more predominant. Because of the missionary activities of devotees, millions of homes in the west have at least one of SP's books on the shelf. Few have even heard of Advaita by comparison.

Going to UK festivals this year has served to prop up this idea for me - at one I attended there were no less than 3 separate groups of Vaishnavas. Not much sign of Advaitins - unless you count the followers of Maharaji/Prem Rawat (who incidentally I am fully convinced is a con man). But all they do is show videos anyway.

In terms of the Advaita type of view, I'd say Buddhism has had, and continues to have a greater impact in western countries.

I doubt the advaita/dvaita issue will go away here. In effect, it seems that what you have is really two quite different religions and philosophies (as well as other things too, like Tantrism, Devi worship etc) which come under the general umbrella term 'Hinduism'.

 

Yes I agree. Myself I don't think the intellect, that is the rational thinking mind, is capable of knowing the real ultimate Truth. It can only be known in a spiritual experience which transcends ordinary thinking. One type of mind philosophizes on this experience in one way, for another, it is different. Many factors are at work here.

In one way, I think perhaps we have to de-construct many of our developed philosophical and theological ideas if we are to reach the experience which is behind all these things - or some level of it anyway.

But let me use an analogy - if I'd never seen a cat, I could read up on cats, look at pictures of them, hear from others about them. Still, it wouldn't be the same as actually seeing a cat. In fact, only when I had seen a cat, would I understand many things I might have heard or read about them. And further, I might also realize that many of the ideas or mental pictures I'd drawn from the descriptions etc, meant something entirely different from what I'd previously imagined. Another point too is that there could be people equally as ignorant as myself about cats who nonetheless pontificate about them as if they really did know.

 

I haven't been to India yet either, but many HK devotees I know have, and confirm that Advaitin philosophy is predominant there, though devotional Vaisnavism is resurging very strongly.

Regarding the west, or the USA since that's my area, "Hare Krishna" is indeed almost a household phrase but the background philosophy isn't known or is misunderstood. There are many Advaitin-oriented teachers and groups here, and the stereotype of eastern faiths here is generally of bearded, bellybutton-gazing yogis, or of "New Agers", who are continual demonization targets for evangelical Christians. Actually, ISKCON has now become very much a cultural/spiritual refuge for many of the Indians living in the USA...a big debate in ISKCON is about "Hinduization". But, with the tremendous body blows that ISKCON has suffered over the past 10 years, the Indian people have been instrumental in its organizational and financial continuity...if it becomes transformed some to suit their needs, well, that's the way it is.

Buddhism has a very large following in the USA, I know for sure, and seems to propogate its ideas in a more cogent fashion than the various Hindu-derivitave sects...but that's just an opinion, as I've never hung with Buddhists...they may be just as diverse and disorganized.

I had hoped we could transcend that issue here and agree on basic principles of Sanatana-dharma, but the Advaitin contingent still seems to want to challenge and debate.

 

I assume you mean me by the advaitin contingent. I have no ddsire to challenge or debate, I want to reconcile. There are great masters in both streams, and in all religions, and to say one is right and the other wrong is disrespectful to both. If you reread I never said dvaita was wrong, but that it was the spiritual thought expressed differently.


And finally Ramana Maharshi ends the debate with this simple idea: Whatever any spiritual tradition says, they all agree that we must look inwards for our true essence. Do that rather than argue about what comes after it. Seek and experience the nexct level and then see if there is anything left to discuss.

 

I never said to blindly accept everything verbatim. It requires reflection, deep mananam, before the essence of the teaching is understood. The same thing is true of the upanishads, their language is often esoteric and requires study and reflection, much more so than the puranas, which are much more explicit.

 

dvaita i feel is one of emotion... devotional feelings... the faith would be canibalized if the pure philosophical implication of our godness, "aham brahmasmi" was embraced in the awakening of bhakti towards a deity... the mood of service or rasa with Krishna... or Rama

and yet i don't feel dvaita and advaita siddhanta are in denial of each other, just different perspectives on god

and too, the knowing god has of itself as god, is actualized by that part of god or jiva, percieving god as god in the relationships of bhakti yoga

 

also, in addition to aham brahmasmi being one of the principles that we all agree upon, i think another should be that Ganesha is carried around on the back of a rat

 

Hello Hipsters..!

 

hey, dude.

 

howdy... i love your website... lots of good mind grok

 

Hey hey GGgJ!

 

I appreciate the plug Molly....

peace out sister..!

 

Hey Hey..!

 

waz shakin..?

 

Interesting board there ...I've got it marked.