Sh!thole Nations

Yes, fascinating material and yet, what use is it? A long list of issues from the past that we can't possibly change. Most of the people who suffered or delivered suffering are long dead. So what's the point of rehashing it? Leverage? To what end?

 

The Barbary Slave Trade is rarely discussed when criticizing the West when the topic of slavery is always brought up. It was far worse than the Atlantic slave trade was, and far more people were victimized.

But it always goes back to, "Our nation was built by racist whites at the expense of others" or some shit.

Never mind that Saudi Arabia finally outlawed slavery in 1961.

I suppose the establishment who writes all our school textbooks would rather that we all be ashamed of our ancestral accomplishments, rather than proud.

 

I see this fallacy a lot

I had a history professor once whose tests consisted of a summary of whatever historical event we were studying, and its historical significance - how has it affected the world today?

I thought it was a great way to teach history and encourage critical thinking. History doesnt happen in a bubble, I find myself saying that a lot on HF lately

 

Phallus

 

So the Barbary Slave Trade excuses the slave trade here at home? The Barbary slave trade enters U.S. history books with the Barbary Wars fought by us, the British, the French and the Dutch against the Barbary pirates in the early nineteenth century--commemorated in the line "shores of Tripoli" in the U.S. Marine's Hymn. The extension of European colonialism over North Africa ended Barbary piracy and brought the slave trade there to an end. You are correct that Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1961; Yemen, Oman,and Mauritania,were even later. The record of Sudan in this regard is not good, and it is still not uncommon for non-Muslim southerners there to be referred to as abeed (slave). Some recent Salafi and jihadist (especially ISIS) support for the institution as compatible with Islam shows that the issue is not exactly dead in the Muslim world. Saudi Arabia, bastion of Salafi-Wahabi Islamism, owes its survival to the United States--a cozy relationship highlighted by Trump's visit last year.

The neglect of Muslim slavery in U.S. textbooks is a function of the neglect of Islam in general. The seeming emphasis on racism in the United States in some high school textbooks is probably an over-reaction to the whitewashed history served up to students in previous decades. Our textbooks should try to be balanced and accurate. The United States has much to be proud of and ashamed of, and keeping it in balance is always a challenge. I happen to be proud of the role played by the United States in combating the Nazis, rebuilding Europe, and resisting Soviet aggression and slavery. Soviet Communism is responsible for taking 20 million lives, exceeded only by the 40 million lives taken by the Communist Chinese. This does not mean, however, that we should turn a blind eye to racism in this country, nor excuse everything our government does.

"The Establishment" does not write our school textbooks. Multiple establishments do, including textbook companies and state and local school boards, in a process that is rather chaotic and subject to the dispositions of state agencies like the powerful Texas Board of Education. "The Establishment" in Texas is hardly left-wing in its orientation. The Gablers, conservative activists who push an agenda friendly to free enterprise, creationism and a right-wing version of the "American Way" are quite adept in lobbying state adoption systems. In Oklahoma, the State Textbook Committee plays a critical role. Arizona passed a law that bans schools from teaching that "promotes resentment toward a race or class of people" (i.e., whites. Conservative pundit Phyllis Schlafly complains that Howard Zinn's left-leaning U.S. history book is the most widely used hitory textbook in U.S.public schools. One can imagine what kind of textbook she'd have the schools adopt. The challenge is to find more balanced books.
Oklahoma State Textbook Committee
Who gets to write public-school history textbooks?
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2012/06/21/how-texas-inflicts-bad-textbooks-on-us/
Texas school board approves controversial textbook changes | Need to Know | PBS
The Rehabilitation Of Joseph McCarthy? Texas Textbooks Process Grinds On
A Textbook Example of What's Wrong with Education | Edutopia
Textbooks - OVERVIEW, SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS IN THE UNITED STATES
It is unfortunately a politicized process, but not one with a consistent pattern of ideological control for the various states.

 

What a stupid asinine argument, so basically what you’re saying is it’s ok to enslave people because someone else is doing it.

 

I can't see where he says that.

 

^^^ How could you not see what is so obvious ^^^

 

Because other countries were doing worse? See I read that but I don't think he's saying that at all. He just wanna bury the hatchet and be done with it all now lol. Clean slate.

 

Of course not. I'm pointing out that slavery has never been strictly a domestic problem. It's been practiced internationally, and in the earliest of civilizations.

Its just that in my experience (mostly online) I've encountered my fair share of ignorance from many people on this topic. Their knowledge of slavery didn't seem to go any further than that of the black slaves owned by whites in the United States. Hell most of them didn't even realize that Europeans and even African leaders organized the whole trade in the beginning. Their myopic views of race and slavery were very cringeworthy. But I'm glad Hipforums is smarter than that.

 

No, I'm not seeing where I said it's OK to enslave people in my previous post #362.

But here I'm saying it right now

 

You asked a lot of questions so I will try to answer them. In order:

What use is it? Well, it's sociology. I think the point of social science is to give us our humanity when it comes to politics and other things like health and welfare. Even policing. More specifically, I think that understanding race and ethnicity is important in interacting in our lives/communities and in making policy decisions, like immigration or the Deferred Action on Childhood Arrivals. Without that it's all to easy to lump these Dreamers into a category characterized by language barriers, or different pigmentation. So without insight into race and ethnicity (or the sociology of racial and ethnic group relations) we lose some of our humanity; in my estimation anyway.

What's the point of rehashing it? I gather you don't give much credibility to history of racism in America. Well, indeed it is important to remember that we once were very racist. And it's a mistake to think that our racism has gone away somehow magically... The fixed fallacy assumes that racism is a fixed element. I'll quote it for you so you can see exactly what I'm meaning:

Leverage? Yes and no. I think that while I would like to see a result come out of a more sociological government (or a more sociological hipforums! ) it's still just important to raise awareness about the issues around race. So actually, no not for leverage necessarily.

To what end? Again, I would prefer a government that is more socially aware, but most of all to raise awareness around issues of race.

 

This may have to do with the focus point of the discussion. If it is slavery in general it may be worthwile to get into it.
If its about white power in the USA it may have far less use. You act like african, asian or middle eastern slavery is ignored in these discussions deliberately, but actually these discussions are often about equality and social relations in the USA, which have been impacted by America's slavery history. By pointing out who was in charge nobody is acting like no other country or people held or traded slaves, or that whites should be more ashamed of themselves.
Just something i noticed: on these forums you are the most frantic person focussing on this guilt shit (banned trolls excepted) But indeed, we don't have to feel guilty by acknowledging the past. I see a lot of others are going a bit overboard with that: they refute all thought and criticism on possible leftovers of that time as guilttripping or coming from an overly sense of shame of one's own race... I'm glad most of hipforums is smarter than that.

 

I think it's apparent from many comments on this forum, the Charlottesville demonstration and ensuing debate, the NFL controversy, and the shithole remark (segue to OP) that white racism (not to mention black racism) is alive and well and living in the White House. There has been astronomical progress since the early fifties, dramatically demonstrated by an African American President. But there are still major pockets of resistance and broader fields of ignorance and racial stereotypes. I'm not fantasizing this. I have a group of guys (Trump supporters) over to my house every week who are even cruder and more vocal racists than Trump. There has been evolution. One of their daughters actually did marry "one of them", and my friend now has to be careful what he says around his grandson. He actually has come to like his African-American son-in-law who is a go-getter in business, unlike his own basement-dwelling doper son still living with him at the age of 31. I'm hopeful that we'll get over this as a country, but we won't do it by closing our eyes to the problem.
"Those who don't remeber the past are doomed to repeat it."
George Santayana
"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Winston Churchill

 

6

This is a Americaocentric website and as such most discussions here are about American issues.

If you go to other site you will find different issues being discussed

The British involvement in slavery and the slave trade are part of the school curriculum but there are those on the right that would like to ‘whitewash’ UK history as a resent hubbub about black people in Roman Britain is an example.

Black people have had a presence in our history for centuries. Get over it | David Olusoga

But I will give you a personal story about how close slavery is to us – I helped clear the basement of an old house in Bristol which was once the centre of the British slave trade.

I found what at first I thought to be parts of a horses bridle, three brass ringlets. They looked like bracelets made of brass.

After a bit of research I found out they were late British manila (or manilla) a form of currency produced in Bristol and used to buy slaves. I’ve shown them to my daughter and explained what they are and I’m going to donate two to a local museum and keep one as a reminder of just how close those despicable time were to today.

US Slave: Manila The African Money Of The Slave Trade

 

His post didnt give a long list of issues from the past, it explained the ahistorical fallacy. An example of the ahistorical fallacy would be saying something along the lines of "so what's the point of rehashing it" when confronted with the concept that slavery and the subsequent southern apartheid might actually have long term ramifcations extending into the modern day.

 

"He".

I am actually a guy masquerading around with a female avatar. LOL! I just liked her picture so I used it as an avatar.

And thank you! That's a very astute assessment of what I was meaning.