Serious implications of irresponsible use of psychedelics

i believe that it is possible and i need no "proof".

dmt, mushrooms and peyote have been consumed probably about as long as they have been around. it is very likely and doesnt really matter enough to find proof so that we can convince some skeptics. who cares if you dont believe it? i bet if you talked to some tribes they would tell you that their ancestors used psychedelics.

 

I have said it so many times and on so many post on hear that LSD can fuck you up big time I have seen people go down hill from LSD just as fast as Crack or Herion. And I love all you people on hear who think that LSD is some wonder drug that is alright to take and eat every other day and think its alright for a 13 year old kid to eat it. I have also heard that every one should take it all the time. I guess some of you who think that way have not seen the evil side of this Drug when abused. Lsd is a very dangerous drug when abused and it can really fuck a person up to the point they will never be the same again. I was one of those who abused LSD and It fucked me up pretty bad. I still have signs of HPPD. Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder. I live in a small town in upstate New York and there is alot of LSD that goes around that comes up From New York City and over the last 5 years we have had 3 young kids die while tripping not one was over 16, one got hit buy a train while tripping, One fell off a cliff while he was tripping and camping on the mountain and the other committed suicide while tripping. And we have had more then enuff young kids end up in the looney Bin. And others who abused LSD are just gone I mean totaly fried, They are a shell of what they use to be, LSD pretty much killed there soul. Bottom line Is LSD when abused is a horrible drug that can do some serious and irreversible damage. Its not adrug to be abused or used all the time, some people hear eat Acid like they smoke pot, They think its a drug that you can do all the time. It will catch up to you real fast !!!

 

I know a kid this exact same thing happened too. he started out just being a little weird and it grew into complete fucking crazyness. The last time he tripped i was with him and i ate a couple doses along with some bomb ass mushrooms he didnt eat any L just like a quarter of shrooms. Later on that night he started freaking out and saying tons of crazy shit about like childhood flashbacks, and like how the cia uses lsd as a way to control or brains and shit. I Also had a friend who was sick from drinking laying on the floor and this kid was convinced he was dying.
The next day he quit his job and shit and was acting weirder than normal. He endded up going to the docter and they diagnosed him as skitzophrenic and gave him pills that helped out alot but now who wont take them anymore because he thinks jesus is all he needs And as long as he has faith everything will work out. hew also thinks the rapture is coming and theres going to be a huge rise in jesus. He also sais jesus has conversations with him.

 

i could very easily go into a doctor and tell him the truth about my drug history, complain about the voices in my head and he would give me some pills and put me on disability.


i would be crazy to do that. :H

 

Oh, I completely agree with you on that point. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in his post by asking for "proof" as he put it in his very own post. First of all, those tribes and cultures weren't around since "prehistoric" times, especially since the very word prehistoric means before history. I don't know how much knowledge we have of cultures using them since, I'm assuming like most others here, I'm going off of what I've read and hearsay. The thing that has to be understood is that we really have very little idea how it actually affected these tribes. We know that they used them and that they considered it medicinal, sure, but I would hate to base my entire decision on that (for many of the reasons I listed in my other post).

At any rate, please don't misunderstand me and think that I meant that they weren't in use by Native Americans, Africans, and many cultures across Europe and the Middle East. I agree 100% that they probably were.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: "Does this really mean that it is 100% safe?"

 

Haha yea, some ancient tribes used to cut holes in their heads, exposing their brains, so evil spirits could be set loose.

I guess that's safe too then.

 

WHAT THE FUCK???

what was the point of that...youll end up like me? what the hell is that supposed to mean, what the hell have i done to you. Please, flatter me...

WHat brought on a random stratement like that....what did i say that warranted such an attack on my mental stability. you cant think of logical arguement to backup your point so you insult someone with an opposing viewpoint whos done noting to deserve such an attack...plain and simple...

In the very first thread, Hemishpere even said that the guy who was instatutionalized was weird before LSD, leading me to beleive he had some sort of disorder that lay in remmision or had yet to surface...

like i said before, its ALL subjective, some can dose ALOT and others cant....some deteriorate metally if they do...some dont...

IMO people who deteriorate mentally have had underlying mental conditions ytwt to show themselves, this is a theory that is backed by hundreds of scentists doing research on the matter and is the generally accepted fact...as opposed to Four Winds who has absolutley no knowledge on the fact period who believes that he can insult me so people will disregard his own ignorance on the matter.

A changing of thought patterns is not a deterioration of mental stability, its a psychedelic, its obviously going to change thought patterns, and if you can still fuction in an everyday society...then your not crazy... thats why people take pshycedelics, habitually...to change their thought patterns...or "to get hip" as lennon once said...

 

I still say it sounds like we just have a different idea of what "deterioration" means. There's a very strong underlying idea here, and that's the idea that it doesn't matter what society thinks about you as long as you are happy with yourself. With this idea, you could be clinically insane and not care, because you are happy with what is going on in your mind.

The main thing I would disagree with in the tasted text is your claim that "this is a theory that is backed by hundreds of scentists doing research on the matter and is the generally accepted fact". Having a B.S. in physics and math and going to grad school for math, I'm at least familiar with the way the scientific community works, and I'm not sure this is really the fact of the matter. I could be wrong, of course, but I wouldn't mind seeing where such a strong claim is coming from. If you have a link or something, I'd really like to see it. I'm not trying to challenge you here as much as I am genuinely curious about the matter.

 

Ive read books about LSD man...ive read readings upon readings of different studies done...i pride myself on the knowledge i have of this drug...its not like im shooting out shit and branding them fact...this is the GENERALLY accepted theory...it says so in Acid Dreams, which is written based on government studies as well as in hundreds of scholarly articles...no offense dude but it doesnt matter what major you have or how long you went to school for....have you taken a pshycedelic: LSD and your body class, no you havent...if your so well versed in education, you should be smart enough to know that just because you havent come across it in your studies and your vast expanse of knowledge in PHYSICS AND MATH (which I'm sure LSD was the MAIN topic of discussion for those classes) doesnt mean it's untrue, look it up.

DO some research right now, thats the theary, its whats been proven or what they think they know at least....I'm not sayinng there isnt some freak case of someone having perminent ego loss froma single LSD use...im saying thats the generally accepted scientific theory, and that is the truth.

 

http://psychicinvestigator.com/Drugs/LSD.htm
"Some users of LSD experience what is clinically referred to as LSD psychosis, schizophrenic-like disorders that seem to be triggered by using the drug. However, in careful analysis of LSD psychosis patients, it appears that those who have strong family histories of major psychosis or psychopathology are more vulnerable than those who do not (Tsuang et al., 1982). Vardy et al. (1983) reported similar findings, as well as that LSD psychotics have significantly higher rates of parental alcoholism than control groups. In a survey of five-thousand individuals who had used LSD a total of twenty-five-thousand times, Cohen (1960) found 1.8 psychotic episodes per thousand ingestions, 1.2 attempted suicides, and 0.4 completed suicides -- figures consistent with the those of the general population. Regarding dangers of psychosis in therapeutic uses of LSD, Pahnke et al. (1970) notes:

"Since 1963 at the Spring Grove State Hospital, and now at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, over 300 patients have been treated with LSD without a single case of long-term psychological or physical harm directly attributable to the treatment, although there have been two post-LSD disturbances which have subsequently responded to conventional treatment."


Bad reactions to LSD are almost certainly dependent on the user. It is becoming increasingly easier to diagnose schizophrenics clinically as patients suffering physical disorders -- these people should be very cautious, if not completely avoidant of truly powerful psychoactive drugs like LSD. There are another class of people who use LSD irresponsibly, ignoring important factors like set and setting -- bad reactions, more acute then chronic, are likely to occur here as well."

http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=8832
I believe these data, taken as a whole, limited as they are in terms of comparing subgroups (i.e. LSD-using vs. non-LSD-using) of "schizophrenia- like" disorders, point toward, at most, a possible precipitory role in the development of these disorders, in a non specific and not etiologically related manner.

http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/psychedelics/lsd/lsd.vs.lithium
LSD has been known to 'trigger' latent mental illnesses - it doesn't
cause them, but it can exacerbate the condition - even if the person
doesn't yet know that they have any 'condition'. This is probably where
the myth that "lsd can make you crazy" originally came from.

there are amny other sites that say the same thing...while im not saying that in very rare cases, breakdowns have occurded in healthy individuals with a stable mind frame and a strong hold on reality...the generally accepted theory is that LSD is a TRIGGER rather than a cause of latent mental illness.

I had originally posted a statement telling you not to use your math and physics experience to discredit the words of others...but that was before i read the bottom of your last post...my apologies

 

No shit. People who are otherwise prone to mental illness are going to be more likely to have it brought on through LSD use. Doesn't mean that completely healthy people are immune to the risks.

The findings of these investigations are poorly and irresponsibly interpreted by most people, imo.

 

this is what i said

....there are amny other sites that say the same thing...while im not saying that in very rare cases, breakdowns have occurded in healthy individuals with a stable mind frame and a strong hold on reality...the generally accepted theory is that LSD is a TRIGGER rather than a cause of latent mental illness.

did you read ALL of each one of those articles...are you wseriously denying that LSD as a trigger of lantent mental illness is the most plausible and generally accepted theme??

I never said its the only time breakdons occur, i said its the generally accepted theory, and i said most of the time i think that is the reason


you said yourself this fellow you knew was whacky....and then you go ahead and say youve met him like 10 times...how do you k now he was a "completely healthy individual" if you didnt even know him that well. Go check his family history and see if he had a background of pre-existing mental isssues he didnt tell anyone about, or if his family had mental issues circulating through his gene pool before you make such assuptions

 

I'm not questioning your knowledge of LSD. What I'm questioning is whether or not is truly is a "generally" accepted theory. In order for that to be true, you would have to be able to ask and get that response from a large majority of scholars and scientists in relevant fields (I would say medicine, biology, and chemistry). I'm not so sure this is the case at all.

There's a bit of hostility here, so I'm sorry if I came across as egotistical or condescending. That wasn't my intention. With that said, I brought up my education more to make that point that I've seen the difference between something that is "generally" accepted and something that is highly controversial and still being researched. I believe LSD falls into that latter category, simply beause of the difficulty of attributing a mental illness or problem to one thing or another, and also because LSD usage is highly dependant on the individual as it is.

Here's where I think I'm having a problem with what you're saying. You're using this word "they" as to indicate that there's some grand ruling body that decides matters like this. I checked your sources, and there are certainly lots of studies about LSD. I definitely don't think there's a whole lot about it that is "generally accepted", though.

I checked the actual source that that came from, and the purpose of the study was to make a comparison between DAP (drug abusers with psychosis), atypical schizophrenics without drug abuse, and a couple of other categories. The study was concerning drug abuse in general, not just LSD, and the findings were a bit more broad that what is stated there. If I understand them correctly, the findings were mostly that drug abusers were more likely to have short-term schizophrenia (still not a good thing...), and that the long-term schizophrenics were more likely to have had a family history of schizophrenia.

That one is fairly interesting. I wonder how much they dose them with, and what kind of conditions are present? I'd love to hear more about it. Maybe I'll do my own research there.

From this same article I found the quote: " In spite of the impressive degree of prior problems noted in many of these patients, there are occasional reports of severe and prolonged reactions occuring in basically well adjusted individuals. In the same vein, there are many instances of faily poorly adapted individuals who suffer no ill effects from repeated psychedelic drug use. In fact, it has been hypothesized that some schizophrenics do not suffer adverse reactions because of their familiarity with such acute altered states. Another possibility is that these individuals may be "protected" by possible "down- regulation" of the receptors for LSD, but the (over-)production of some endogenous compound. Individual prediction of adverse reactions, therefore, is quite difficult..."

That seems to be what was previously a community site. Whoever is speaking there didn't claim to have any medical knowledge or training and was probably speaking from hearsay.



Now, I agree 100% that people with family histories of mental illness are much more likely to encounter problems with LSD usage. The problem with this is that almost EVERYONE has a history of mental illness. I'm pretty sure I could ask anyone I know if they have a family member in their near family (parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents) with a history of mental illness and they would say yes. Personally, my uncle is paranoid schizophrenic, my dad and brother have ADD, my dad has a bit of manic depressive disorder, and my mom's side of the family has history of mental illness, as well. Most of my friends have a few close family members with mental problems. Family history is EXTREMELY easy to come by, so it's no surprise that a good number of cases will come up with a family history of a relevant case. Also, most of those links you posted acknowledge that there are cases of recurring mental problems, even if it's rare. The actual scholarly articles referenced in some of your links don't make any conclusive claims at all, and the one I looked at that was referenced in your quote only made the claim that those with family histories were more likely to have long term effects. It's interesting that almost everything I've seen in your references (and indeed, in my own research) uses something like more likely. Of course someone with a history of mental illness in their family is more likely to have issues. Also, as a couple of the thing you pasted said, it can be impossible to know whether or not you have something like schizophrenia before it sets in. It's a pretty well accepted idea (as opposed to generally accepted...) that usage of psychedelics can trigger schizophrenia earlier than it would have set in, or sometimes trigger it to set in when it might not have set in at all. Also, from what I understand, there have been plenty of cases where schizophrenia has been greatly exaggerated by psychedelic usage.

I have direct exposure to this sort of thing, myself. My brother, who has no medically documented case of anything except ADD, has gone off the deep end himself. He talks about demons haunting him, being a psychic, being part of some crazy plan, being a "light traveller", and all sorts of things. He quite often goes off on crazy antics and can't be controlled by any of us when he does. Needless to say, he's gotten in quite a bit of trouble at this point (he's 27). I'm sure it's possible that he has some sort of mild schizophrenia or something, but he was perfectly fine before he started heavily abusing drugs. I have no doubt in my mind that he would have been a completely different person.

Now, I'll leave with a quote from wikipedia on scientific theory:

"In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation."

This is why I don't think you can call what you are describing as a "generally accepted scientific theory".

*phew* that was a long post!

 

I just thought I'd add that I'm not opposed to drug use in general. I've done LSD myself quite a few times, as well as a lot of other psychedelics. I'm currently growing some shrooms and plan on taking them at least a few times this summer. I love my psychedelics, but I think there are plenty of risks and that they need to be taken seriously.

 

i suppose...i cant deny what your saying as true...I'm not myself fimiliar with scientific studies myself...so to say the ENITIRE scientific community thinks this way is a bit of a stretch and addition of my own personal beliefs. I suppose a better way of putting it would be...

In my research, the themeses i thought to be as most prominent are that LSD generally acts as a trigger for latent psychosis. Whne I say generally accepted theory i mean a majorit of the articles Ive read say that the primary number of LSD psychosis cases, showed signs of underlying mental illness before the dose or had LARGE schizoprhic family backgroungs...now cmon man, you cant say that just because everyone has family history of mental problems, you know well that in science when they reffer to such a thing they mean many cases in many family members, not just one or two scattered individulas through a families lineage...Im not saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to happen in someone with a healthy mental state...as it even says in the articles that it has happened to people like this before. But to that I say that these people, (even if they were mentally stable) were not mentally prepared for the LSD experience, or that they had a bad trip of such magnitude that is scarred them for life.

From my very first post here i have said its all subjective, some people can dose all the time and be fine...all i want to get through as my message is that dont take what happened to Hemispheres friend to be a universal fate to all LSD useres...I dodnt doubt that LSD takes way from your ability to see straight in your sober reality whilst constantly using, and lately while considering my own futere and the nature and horrible condition of my HPPD and visual disturbaces...i have reconsidered my use and am currently switching to purely expiremntal and recreational usage. But me and the rest of my friends (many who dose quite frequintly) have not witnessed any such deterioration in our mental states nor in the mental states of others (ive never seen lsd psychosis first hand) or anything like what hemisphere speaks of. I think that Hemishpere should have added a disclaimer saying Although I realize the effects are SUBJECIVE,...here are the dangers and hat could possibly happen (although very rarely) due to chronic psychedelic use

 

I no longer have a problem with anything you're saying . I agree with most of it, with maybe a few little details I'd change. Glad to see neither of us were too stubborn to actually read what the other wrote and have an intelligent discussion. My hats off to you, sir.

 

and you as well

i think it's stupid when people get hostile when insults wern't even an issue...this forum is for the sharing of information, and that is all...i do think a large majority of people here who have dosed maybe one or two times with little experience on the matter (I am not reffering to you) should do their research before openly branding what others say as wrong or (full of shit) though...

and to Four Winds...thats comment was completely immature and uneccisary, and for my amusement, would you please shed liht on what you meant by "youll end up like me". While i dont mean to ding my own bell here ide say you could end up alot worse considering I'm in college working towards a respectful major...while i dont know you, fro the way you post about me without knowing me in this and in other threads ide b e inclined to label you as an "insacure uniformed douchbag with no knowledge of psychedelic drugs or yourself" but you dont see me stooping to that low do you... pal

 

PsychMyke and Glordag great post I enjoyed reading bolth of your points of view, great post all around very good debates, storeis, info etc. also Great articles Myke I enjoyed them alot. I think the bottom line is for me that LSD is a substance that should be totaly respected and not abused . I love LSD and have had some of the best times of my life on it but I fell in love with the feeling of triping and wanted to trip all the time and it hurt me very bad in alot of ways Legal,Social,Mental etc, I am buy no means anti LSD or anti drug for that matter even though some people think I am on hear. I am anti drug when the Drugs are abused and done wrong I have seen alot of people close frinds Die and get fucked up because of drugs I know the evil side that drugs have and LSD has a very Evil side when done wrong. Hey if you want to go to a show/festival or go camping with friends and eat a few hits go ahead have a blast I thinks it great. But what I am against is when a 14 yearold kid who mind is not even developed yet is eating hits every other day.Please people this Drug is some serious shit that can fuck you up when taken wrong. Just respect it and take it in moderation.

Also Hay Four Winds I guess we have to look no further then how intelligent Myke is. I guess that statement back fired on you ?

 

I noticed the adjective "well-adjusted" to describe the 'normal' folks who freak on LSD. "well-adjusted" to your current frame of mind is enough to cause a breakdown on LSD per se. These people making studies on LSD have probably never taken the drug, so they don't fully realize the effects it has on your mind. A person can be "sane" "intelligent" "well-adjusted" and STILL isn't the type of personality who meshes well with LSD.

 

Wow, what a fantastic thread. Cheers to all, esp Glordag and PsychMyke for all of the great info/debate, and I must say I agree wholeheartedly with the conclusions drawn.