Serious implications of irresponsible use of psychedelics

Bill Hicks had a funny bit about this, "When you're high, you can do everything you normally do just as well … you just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference. "

I don't think that psychedelics or marijuana, for that matter, makes a person think or not think certain things. They are mind manifesting, they basically intensify whats going on in the mind. The person has a choice of what they think about. Maybe if a person is lazy, they get high, they get more lazy. Maybe a brainiac gets high, they figure out how pi-mesons via gravitons. Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter against San Diego in 1970 when he was on LSD.

I think what you describe, in the previous post, is more of negative stereotype, then reality. Many of the best/kindest people I have known and/or met have been stoners/trippers, that were from various professions and lifestyles, none like the stereotype.

 

Well, I'm a physics/math major, and I had SERIOUSLY difficulty doing anything physics or math related while tripping (or even afterwards). That includes even thinking about simple concepts. Not only that, but I would definitely say that I developed entirely new thoughts and was opened up into a new world that I had never experienced before. They definitely do a little more than just intensify what is going on.

In fact, ego loss is one of the scariest possibilities of LSD and mushrooms. I would think this is a clear separation of what the person "normally" is. Just because the reaction that causes a trip takes place in the mind, that doesn't mean that it can only work with the parameters that were there before. You are introducing a new chemical to the brain...this can OBVIOUSLY cause new thoughts or brain patterns to occur. If you were arguing for DMT, you would have a better case, but that's simply because DMT is naturally occurring in the brain in small quantities.

Maybe we just aren't understanding each other :|. I dunno.

 

Well, eventually permanently shifting out of this plane of reality...
At least, shifting your mind out while your body remains trapped here. Not something we're designed for...and not something most are suited for even after years of preparing for it.

 

Any time you eat, just about anything, new foriegn chemicals are entering the body. I think you have the assumption that, the sober mind is rational and anything foriegn to it only messes it up. Well there are, of course, many, many irrational poeple and people with everything mental ailment down to the raving maniacs, out there, that have never done drugs. They then take some kind of drugs/medications to make then normal. That is just the opposite of what you propose, but happens every day.

Many or most of the experiences from psychedelics can and have been experienced by people that are not on psychedelics, in some way. Such as visions, deep trances, etc. There are numerous ways this has been done, various mediations, fasting, sleep deprivation, etc. So I think the brain is already wired for these experiences, its not some malfunction causing them.

There are so many varities of experineces that people have when they do psychedelics, that I don't think there is any really consistant basis for stereotyping the experinece.

 

yea it can change you, but what i meant was it wont drive somoeone insane to the point where they are considered mentally ill

 

LSD has been studied so many times over he years, and while it can change your thought patterns and way of thinking, it DOES NOT deteriorate your stable frame of mind to the brink of insanity unless you cant handle reality when your not tripping (i.e. you have some sort of mental condition regardless) its been proven time and time over by scientists and researchers alike...Tim Leary use to dose for weeks straih over and over again, and im pretty sure hes still "up to par" intellectually

 

i have done a lot of LSD in my day. (well over 1500hits in the last 10 years)...

when 'normal' people learn this about me, or people who have no real understanding of what LSD is or people who have had bad experiences with LSD they tend to think that i must be crazy. they dont hear what i have to say because they have already made up their mind about me. if they had it their way i would be locked up in a mental hospital.

in normal life- the one where i go to work and pay my taxes, i am very well respected. people think very highly of me in everyday life as long as they dont find out about my private lifestyle - if they ever find out what i do in my spare time they try to use it against me - they start to think that they are better then me because i must be crazy.

i honestly believe that your friends real problem was that he didnt know when to keep his mouth shut. there are a lot of ideas and concepts that i would never speak of around certain people - this is because if i did they would have me locked up!

Hemisphere - you saying that your so called friend is 'truly mentally disturbed' is only your opinion. for all you know he could be going through a phase and you can never be sure that this so called mental illness would ever have caused any danger to himself or others. we live in a world where if a group of people hold this same opinion about you then you are insane. by this definition i am truly insane! the thing is that i would rather it be this way - i realize that it is actually the other way around only i would never call everyone else insane - i would just say that they are ignorant. the fact that i dont think like everyone else is no reason to assume that i dont have a place in society. it is outrageous that people can be so fucking stupid. i am better at what i do then anyone i know and there are many who would confirm this. even my parents (who know of my lifestyle) are reluctant to admit that i am probably the most intelligent person they know - a little strange but very smart. in their eyes i am the exception to the rule that all drug users are useless.

Hemisphere - do you think that it is right that your friend was put into the hospital? do you you know how he got there?

there are so many people that i know of who actually believe that i am 'truly mentally disturbed'. of course i do not associate with these people anymore and it has no effect on me. they just dont understand me - and they dont need to either. for some reason it really upsets people like that to know that someone like me is allowed to run free. they are afraid that i will turn others on to this acid stuff and make them go crazy to.

if you are truly a friend then i would consider that your friend is just going through a difficult time in his life and probably needs you to understand that rather then call him crazy and turn your back on him.

you seem convinced that this friend of yours has completely fucked himself up. if you really do think this way then please stay away from your so called friend. the last thing he needs is more people trying to convince him that he is fucked up. the only thing that will get him through this rough stage in his life is the belief that he is not crazy and that he does have a place in society. if he can not believe in himself then he will never make it and all of you so called friends can feel good about being right! the more people he has believing in him right now the better. everyone is beautiful and everyone has a place here on earth.

locking someone up in a mental hospital is no different then locking someone up in jail except that the one in the mental hospital in most cases didnt do anything wrong! - they just didnt fit in with a bunch of dumb monkeys!

 

Well as I tried to make clear it's not a close friend of mine. We share the same group of friends but have probably only met about 10-15 times over a year or so, through other friends. I don't know how he got into this hospital, apparently he doesn't either, but it wouldn't be a first for him to try and admit himself to somewhere.

I'm not going to go into that much detail about ashim but please don't make presumptions about him just being a normal guy who occasionally voiced a crazy idea.

 

read my post again.

who are you to call him crazy.

it would be stupid to believe that he is crazy just cause you say so- you dont even know him.

this sounds like it is all hear say to me... did you hear him say that he doesnt know how he got there or did someone tell you he said that? and i am sure that when he asks the doctor or nurses how he got there that they would tell him.

you are a part of the problem. people like you only make life more difficult for people like him and thats too bad.

you come on hear telling us we should all learn a lesson from this event that you know nothing about because he isnt even a friend of yours. it is all gossip and hear say - hardly something to learn from.

 

Well then don't learn from it.

No I don't know him that well, but I've been present for several of his "incidents", and been the subject of one of them.

I shouldn't have to explain my reasoning to you nor detail any of these incidents. I'd typed out a couple but really it's not your business, it's hardly my business either but as I said, I posted this just as an warning of what can happen, not to gossip about an individual.

 

... and the warning is - anyone who experiments with drugs should be aware that there are incredibly stupid people out there who might have you locked away in a mental institution if you - worry them too much, piss them off too much, or just get in their way... best bet is to limit the number of people who know that you use drugs. associate with people you trust and keep all others at a distance. it is a crazy world out there full of people just like Hemisphere who will declare you insane even though they have only hung out with you a few times and even admit that they dont really know you.

 

I'm not going to say who, but so many of you just have no clue. You are so self-assured, so confident in your knowledge, and it's a house of cards. We have almost no idea how the brain really works. Don't any of you understand this? I mean, you cite studies from 60 years ago (actually you don't even cite them, you just claim to have read them), when we knew far, far less than the pitiful amount that we know today.

Undoubtedly hundreds, probably thousands, of people have lost touch with reality permanently or at the very least long term after tripping. How can you possibly hope to know that all of those people were somehow "predisposed?" I mean what is "predisposed" anyway? I'm a determinist (well I'm really a compatibilist, but I won't get into that), so I think that everything is pretty much determined anyway, but who's to say that someone would even REALIZE that they could be in danger when taking acid? For instance, I now realize that it was probably a risk for me to trip, but I had no way of understanding it at the time. To me, I seemed just like anyone else... I had a few issues, but I was as stable as the next guy. So, even if, hypothetically (and there is no way of knowing this) we could know that only these magically "predisposed" people can go nuts on acid, HOW CAN YOU KNOW YOU ARE PRESDISPOSED BEFORE YOU GO INSANE???

The fact is, acid is not a fucking toy. All of you guys are so comfortable, so confident that there's nothing wrong with it, nothing to worry about... but let me tell you, your confidence is a sign of your hubris, and shows that you are far more interested in sugar coating the truth rather than opening your eyes. It could very well be your downfall one day, if not with acid then with something else ("these bungee jumpers have to be certified, there's no way something can go wrong if they're certified").

 

Of course food introduces new things into your body sometimes. The difference is, it doesn't go straight to your brain and stimulate neurons and pathways and such to the degree that LSD does. I never mentioned (or even indicated) that any foreign substance going into the body is bad for it. In fact, I made it very clear that I didn't necessarily think that the "changes" that can occur to a person on acid are bad. Some of the changes to my thinking were certainly for the better.

As far as experiences occurring with people that are not on psychedelics, aside from flashbacks I'm not buying it. It's certainly possible to experience to some degree the things you have experiences in the past, but it is more of a memory than an actual experience. Flashbacks do occur, but they are somewhat rare and they aren't really anywhere near the same degree as the actual trip, from what I understand. Also, from what I've read about them, they aren't really a physical occurance like a trip, but more of a memory. It has been related to flashbacks that war veterans might have.

That brings up another interesting point. Psychedelic use has been compared to an extreme emotional experience. Why? Well, because that's what it is, really. Especially the first times someone is on such a drug, they are usually experiencing something so new and intense, that it will be a very vivid and extreme experience. ANY such experience can easily lead to problems afterwards. It's no different than having recurring nightmares or having a fear of something after a traumatic experience with it. Are you now going to tell me that anyone with post-traumatic stress syndrome was already crazy?

 

Serious implications of irresponsible use of psychedelics?

We need to look no further than PsychMyke. Kids, dont use hallucinogens or you'll end up like him!

 

in low dosages or few trips the long term after affects to LSD are un-noticable. it is not until you take more acid more often that you start to notice the effects.

why would so many people make this up?

i love my LSD, i am 30 years old, been trippin for 10 years - a lot in the beginning (most would say too much),, now i trip once a month sometimes more. i am high all of the time - like being on a tiny dose all the time. i love this feeling - some people cant handle it.

plus - what you see or experience on LSD is real - not some effect created by the drug, the drug opens you up to experience in a different way - a more open way, what is actually going on inside you and the universe around you. who is to say that you cant experience these things without drugs. i get pretty high and psychedelic during meditation.

 

kids please dont listen to 'Four Winds' - prejudice!

john lennon used psychedelics and he turned out just fine.

 

LOL. Lennon was completely insane, but I see your point.

 

I wasn't even talking about flashbacks. Take sleep deprivation, for instance. If an otherwise healthy person does not sleep for, say, 7 days, they usually start to hallucinate and have many other strange experiences. Link- http://web.bvu.edu/faculty/ferguson/Course_Material/polysomnographs/Sleep%20Deprivation%20Data/sleep_deprivation_effects.htm

I am curious what "proof" you have of this.

If you don't know, you shouldn't do it.

There are peoples/cultures out there that have been doing psychedelics since prehistoric times. In those many thousands of years of practice, I think they just might, know what they are doing. In those cultures, psychedelics are looked at as cure for mental illnesses not a cause of it.

 

You can also hallucinate from taking in too much caffeine. I'm sure there are many, many ways to hallucinate, but I would certainly say it isn't commonplace, especially at the level of an acid trip. The fact of the matter is, you can't reproduce the reactions that occur to LSD without introducing LSD into the body. I mean, it's this very reason that LSD and shrooms are so different than, say, Salvia. They work on different receptors, from what I understand. This is also why Salvia has more of a short-term addiction (the "I must have more right now!!" feeling after you take a big hit).

None of this means that methods of hallucinating are anything like an acid trip. In fact, if you have ways of hallucinating without drugs, then I say go for it. My point deals with acid and serious psychedelics, not with alternative methods of mind alteration. How does the fact that you can go for 7 days without sleep and see shit that isn't there have any bearing on how LSD affects the mind after usage? I still maintain my statement that it can (and quite often does) completely change people, and this sometimes results in what some people would describe as erratic or strange behavior.

He probably has about as much "proof" of this as you have of some of your claims. I think it's quite clear at this point that we are all going off of speculation and hearsay, and I'll be the first to admit it. Calling for proof of such a claim seems a bit of a cop out, to me. We've certainly all heard of plenty of people losing touch with reality for a while after becoming a heavy psychedelic user, no?

:horseshit
If only we could use this logic with everything. "If you don't know that going out in your car that day will kill you, you shouldn't do it." Yes, it would be a great world if we knew all of the consequences before the actions. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. How can someone POSSIBLY know what their fate is?!

Since prehistoric times? Really? Would you care to show some "proof" of that? I would like some papers concerning the findings of the psychedelics in their diets or their usage in their lives. I would then like to see where they documented its usage and purpose. Then, of course, I would like to see a timeline showing how they continued the usage throughout generations. Of course, I'll need the geneaology showing how these cultures link up with modern day cultures that continue the usage of the drugs, as well. See how that works? It's hearsay.

Also, considering the fact that we DON'T have the experience of those cultures, it's hard to say whether or not we could even tap into such "medicinal" usages. Personally, I am a bit skeptical as to a lot of "medicinal" practices of ancient and/or shamanistic cultures. There's a LOT of crazy shit they did that they thought would heal people, and a good bit of it was rubbish. They put a lot of faith into mystical experiences and divine properties, so it's no surprise that they would consider certain psychedelic drugs to be medicinal. Let's keep in mind that the usage of a substance on a regular basis within a culture doesn't mean it wasn't bad for them (or at least some of them). Some of these same cultures would take in toxic foods, make sacrifices, and do many other things on a regular basis that probably didn't contribute very well to population growth.

Now, I will give you a little ground here. There are quite a bit of studies concerning the medicinal properties of different psychedelics. Just from what I've heard, LSD can be useful for OCD, depression, and a few other things. Of course, weed has some medicinal value. I've heard that the spiritual element of mushrooms can help get some people back on the right track in life. Just like any medication, however, improper usage can also lead to damage.

As a final word, I'd also like to mention the fact that LSD has only been around for about...oh...60 years now? I believe it was in the 40's that it was discovered. I could wikipedia it right quick, but I just got off work and I'm feeling especially lazy/tired. At any rate, the point is simply that NO ancient culture was using LSD, so the argument is null and void for at least that drug.

 

Great post Glordag!