Seperation of Church and State

Trippy, I pointed this out about 4 pages ago and no one wanted to hear me. And though Jefferson DID in fact use the term, it wasn't used for ANYTHING other then space in an archive until the 1930s as I also pointed out.

Failure to see the truth in black and white makes this entire thread rhetoric. You all want to argue over the existance of the Easter Bunny. Please enjoy yourselves.

 

Well, if they wont listen, let's make fun of them whenever they claim it's actually there.

 

Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is only one of many documents that prove that the Founding Fathers wanted Separation of Church and State.

The Danbury Baptists were in favor of Church/ State separation so Jefferson wrote this letter to them to address their concerns and to clarify his position.

 

McNugget and Zoomie, sounds like you guys are focused on someone having called the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution the
"Separation of Church and State Clause," certainly an error in nomenclature but in a crude sense perfectly accurate since the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment in its proper context means "separation of church and state."

Also:

In 1773, Isaac Backus, a prominent Baptist minister in New England, observed that when "church and state are separate, the effects are happy, and they do not at all interfere with each other: but where they have been confounded together, no tongue nor pen can fully describe the mischiefs that have ensued."


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States

 

hey Pal!! Now you've flamed the whole christian world!! ~ what's wrong with the Easter Bunny ??

 

People who just dismiss the existence of the Easter Bunny are morons and they miss out on the greatness of the EB. Having a loving, knowing relationship with the Easter Bunny is part of the beauty of life. Of course, I prefer the modern Easter Bunnies to the old fashioned ones, they look more sleek and orgasmic.

We are talking about playboy bunnies right?

 

No. No no no no no. Read it again. We're focusing on the Constitution of the United States. No "establishment clause. Nothing else. No more. No where does it state "Separation of Church and State". While it's a nice idea and may have been the INTENTION of the framers of the constitution (but it wasn't) it is not a part of the text. And the First Ammendment was not intended to be the buffer between the two.

And for those of you who have had your hopes of easter goodies dashed...


...my bad. Santa is real though...

 

I just want them to keep their god shit out of my kids's school. The pledge they have to do makes me FURIOUS! But my daughter says she just doesn't say it. They give the kids a choice here.

 

Just because celtgrrl and I are Pagans doesn't mean our collective brood is. In fact one is Christian, one is Atheist, one is Agnostic and the other is six and hasn't made up hermind. Is that your choice or hers?

 

Are you talking about your family, Zoomie? Does everyone get along despite religious differences?

I know that I don't even talk religion with my family, as they are all christian, simply because I don't like my family worring about me going to hell or something.

 

Im not sure who celtgrrl is but my daughter is only 9. So I want her to grow up with a Pagan influence which she loves being Pagan btw, then when she is older and wants to explore other options thats fine, but for now I feel that it will do her harm to have too much a a christian influence. It did me, I was sent to a private Xian school and it did alot of emotional damage that Im just now healing from.But later if she decides she wants to be a different religon thats totally fine with me.

 

Zoomie, McNugget:


The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Frequently, the "Establishment Clause" is used to refer to the entire clause referring to religion, but the term is more accurately used to refer to the first part of the clause. The second part of the clause is commonly referred to as the "Free Exercise" clause. Traditionally, this has been interpreted as the prohibition of the establishment of a national religion by Congress or the preference of one religion over another. Prior to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court generally took the position that the substantive protections of the Bill of Rights did not apply to actions by state governments. Subsequently, under the "incorporation doctrine", certain provisions were selectively applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the establishment and free exercise clauses in such a manner as to reduce or eliminate the general acknowledgement of religion, God or other higher being by state, local governments and civic life (For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, Justice David Souter concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."). Critics of this interpretation argue that it effectively changes the Constitution in a way never contemplated by the founders. However, this is a controversial and evolving area of jurisprudence.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause


Peace,

23




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You have a very skewed understanding of Christianity if you think it can "damage" someone. Shit, Jesus was a hippie. Everyone knows that.

 

It's quite the other way around ~ the "skewed understanding' is that christians are in denial of the negative effects their religion has upon precious minds and lives. Some of the stories contained in the links below are truly tragic, and should not be fobbed off by the typically christian responses 'they were never really christians anyway", "the bible says many will fall away" blah blah blah Such stories are real, true, and cannot be countered by ideological whitewashing because they are not theoretical, but the christian responses always are, as is yours, trippymcnugget. How on earth can you contend to know better than the person who was damaged, praytell?
http://www.infidels.org/electronic/email/ex-tian/stories.html
http://exchristian.net/
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pmurray/exchristian/
http://www.mtfreethinkers.org/sites/ExChristian.htm

 

As long as it holds to it's intention of being freedom OF religion and not freedom From religion. When courts become bullied by left wing extremists to make it illegal for a town to put a Nativity in the town square because one whiny person swears up and down in some zany hissy fit that seeing something religious is somehow going to warp their child or give them cold sweats at night, as they toss and turn in a panic having to walk past a scene that says we are honoring the birth of Christ. But, they do allow for a town or city Christmas tree to be lit without any tears. When any sort of monument bearing any sort of mention of God or the ten commandments is seen as a threat to the sanctity of all life as we know it. The commandments are Jewish anyway, but for some reason, everyone says it's Christian nuts fighting for them. When Chaunaka stays Chaunaka but Christmas becomes happy holidays. I think most people use the 1st amendment to suppress Christianity, if for no other reason than if whatever their beliefs are were challenged, all hell would break loose and some self-riteous fellow from the ACLU would suing a small child if he dared even say that a Jewish, or muslim icon should not be on display if ever it were. The founders were very religious, Christian men, who based the wordings of their new government on what they believed to be Judeo-Christian principles. I find it hard to believe that Jefferson or Washington ever intended for religion to be suppressed by the wills of a minority. It was intended to flourish in all of its forms free from the dictates of the state. If the taxpayers of a town are Christian, and say what you will, but in most areas of the country they are, then they have the right to decide what goes up and comes down. A display is not forcing you to believe in it, it is only the people displaying what they believe in. When the government stops praying, then they will have the moral authority to start tearing down monuments. Until then, in the words of a wise man, If you don't like it, don't look at it.

 

wrong, the founders did not base the constitution on jueao christian anything, the constitution was based on the iriqui national charter
in christian terms a pagan society
try again

 

as well as the Magna Carta, Greek democratic principles, and J-Christian values