Seperation of Church and State

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Sera Michele, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. Sera Michele

    Sera Michele Senior Member

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    This is an issue that seems to be cropping up, as Senate leaders are holding political confrences in church and churchgoers are voting to ban gay marriage to protect their religious marital traditions.

    It is usually the secular scene you hear crying "seperation of church and state!" But does that mean that this seperation is to only protect the secular amongst us here in the US?

    I have read interviews from christians that disagree with the constitutional seperation, and have read interviews of christians that feel the seperation protects their church. Setting aside the fact that the seperation is a constitutional requirement for this country, do the christians (and others, of course) on this board think it should exist? Do you feel that some of your religious beliefs should be legislated, and which? Is it okay for politicians to hold televised (or other) political conferences in churches? Or you want to protect your church from government corruption that, for example, plagued the catholic chuch through it's history?

    Or is your answer somewhere inbetween? I'd like to know what you think.




     
  2. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    i think seperation of curch & state is something w need yet have never really had, .. seperation of church & state also means in how we vote..i cant tell you how many people i talked to who didnt care that bush was an evil war monger, because they only cared about his religouse veiws on abortion
     
  3. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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    i think the seperation is absolutely essential. people can't help but vote their morality, i guess, but i think that if you go to the seventh day adventist site somewhere, you can find even christian argument in definite favor of the seperation that would be very valuable in any arguments you may get into with christian believers in theocracy.
     
  4. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    thats the thing though, they dont vote theyre morality do they, they vote for who says god most often..who is most christian..or claims to be..look at bush, he sayshesagainst abortion & god is the most important thing in his life so they vote for him..but theyre morality should tell them hesa liar & cheat a murderer & criminal who killd hundreds as governer, & hundreds of thousandsas prsidnt..yet as long as he claims gods on his side thy support anythingg he does
    face it, the church & state are 1in the same for the most part..since churched openly tell theyre members who to vote for
     
  5. Sera Michele

    Sera Michele Senior Member

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    So are christians getting taken advantage of by political leaders? Are they pandered to for their votes then forgotten or thrown a bone once in a while?

    It certainly seems that way to me. How does a Bush-voting christian, or any christian see it though?
     
  6. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

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    having been recently passed in canada, the same-sex marrige bill had the most opposition [i would assume] in Alberta, Canada's "Bible Belt"...the way lots of religious people argue to not recognize, or even ban same-sex marrige, the old "its a religious institution, so haveing homosexuals do it wrecks the tradition" yadda yadda yadda...but with that argument, you would have to then say, ok, so the state then, is no longer allowed to issue marrige licences, and only those performend in a church by an ordainded minister in the name of God [but then the question becomes, which God?] are legal marriges...

    Canada has the clause in the bill, that if you object to performing the marrige based on religious grounds, you dont hae to do it...but i think, if you are a civil servent in city hall, and two gay peopel want to get married, and you say no, cause you dont believe in it, that is wrong, it is your JOB to perform these, you cant just deny them...but the clause then apples for ministers in churches, and they can refuse to do them...and i agree with that, not cause im against same-sex marriage, but cause its their right to do so...

    anyways, that was long winded, and probobly hard to understand sometimes, and i probobly messed up on a few occasions, but that is ok...

    the main part is, if civil same sex unions in the states are abnnd, you would then have to say that only unions in the name of God are legal...

    i sincerly apologise if i accidentally make this into a same-sex marrige debate...
     
  7. Sera Michele

    Sera Michele Senior Member

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    I think it is a good point, and on topic.

    If marriage is, like christians claim, a religious tradition than can only christians marry? If same-sex marriages undermine religious tradition, what grounds is that for banning them on a state level?

    Is our constitution's seperation clause undermined by the fact that gay marriages are being banned all over the United States by and because people believe God thinks it is wrong? Is it unconstitutionial to ban an act like marriage for a certain type of person because the main religion of the country is against it? Does it go against the seperation of chuch and state even though majority ruled?

    I am personally convinced that same sex marriage is getting banned all over this country based pretty much solely on religious beliefs. That and the fact that it icks some people out. But just because it grosses you out is no reason to BAN other people from doing it. So either way, I can find and have never heard any good reason that same-sex marriages should be illegal. And I believe that the current bans are infringing on our constitutional rights.
     
  8. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

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    i think it is pretty bad that sodomy is banned in some states...
     
  9. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    hence the idea of a constitutional ammendment.. which effectively disregardsthe seperation of church & state, which would then have to be removed from the constitution
     
  10. IronGoth

    IronGoth Newbie

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    It works in the inverse. You have people "dropping" out of the system because they don't recognise a secular world...

    Kingdom of Heaven is what they call it. Curiously enough it's really popular with folks who don't want to pay licence tab fees. Once WA scrapped that tax it's amazing how many people's religious views changed.
     
  11. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    the funny thing is, if there ever was a president who was openly athiest or agnostic i bet ya no matter how much better is policies are over a christian alternativem the athiest would be branded as amoral, even evil, & therefore ofcourse its the christian thing to do to assasinate the evil doer..even if he wasable to end starvation & bring about world peace
     
  12. mynameiskc

    mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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    that's the big election, and i agree, it's stupid to trust a politicians mouth. but in the thousands of smaller acts every day, these christians are willing to gather and vote on small points and legistators every day.
     
  13. Burbot

    Burbot Dig my burdei

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    i could "listen" to this guy talk for hours :rolleyes:




    NOTE: the quotations around listen is not cause im ignoring you, but cause im not hearing you physically speak
     
  14. Zoomie

    Zoomie My mom is dead, ok?

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    You are all missing one very important thing: No where in the US constitution is the phrase "Separation of Church and State". There is no "clause". This is a common misconception. It simply reads, in the First ammendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    That's all. Nothing more. So why did a bunch of old white men put something this vague on parchment that eventually became "Separation of Church and State"?

    To prevent any body of government from adopting a specific religion and then subjugating or discriminating those who were not of that specific religion. You know, like many European countries had done before our ancestors fled to... here!

    The entire idea of separation of church and state came in the 1930s and is attributed to (drum roll, please): Our wonderful friends of the Christian right in defense of CREATIONISM! That's right, they wanted the practice of teaching evolution out of the public school system and when the Feds said, "hell no, we'll decide where man came from", the Fundies screamed for separation of church and state under the First Ammendment (which, as you read, says nothing at all in that vein). So as usual, Christians start a fight and leave it for someone else to clean up. Then they use their opponents words as a defense at a later date to suit their own needs.

    And they call us heathens diabolical..;).

    Funny though that the church can endorse political candidates and political candidates and elected officials seem to have no problems endorsing religions...
     
  15. Daniel Herring

    Daniel Herring Member

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    Habakkuk 1:4, “Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment
    doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth”.

    I think we need more righteous, god fearing men and women in office.
     
  16. MrRee

    MrRee Senior Member

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    I was thinking along the lines of "what would happen in a religious totalitarian society"?
    If religion became a political force (as it clandestinely already has), the free world is in great danger of religious totalitarianism.
    Why do christian organizations lobby politicians and political parties pushing their religion-driven agenda's?
    Given that the aim of christianity is to evangelize the world and supposedly prepare the way of "the lord" (JC), it sure worries me to think that christianity is swaying western government as much as it's a worry that Islam is swaying Middle Eastern governments. Not so strange that is where the battle line is being drawn, either.
    Too bad that the most aggressive nation on earth also has the worst and most powerful weapons, has demonstrated their willingness to use them, and forbids any other nation from acquiring them! Any wonder the Russians and Chinese are conducting joint war-games......... Sorry that's off topic, but in a way it's also right on topic.
    Scarry:eek:
     
  17. Daniel Herring

    Daniel Herring Member

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    A religious totalitarian society would be preferable to a secular totalitarian society.
     
  18. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    a religios totolatarian soviety is what were fighting in iraqyou fool.. what we need is a law saying no man shal ever become president if he expresses any religios veiw will affect his legislations & descisions

    go forth & kill in the name of the lord boom boom booom & we're all dead
     
  19. Libertine

    Libertine Guru of Hedonopia

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    You fucking SINNERS!!! You're going to all burn in Hell!

    We should become a fucking theocracy with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell running the show. Only then can we get back to God!

    GWB, btw, is the greatest President EVER, because he is God's MAN!

    You assholes better get on your fucking knees and pray that God forgives you all and shows mercy on your pitiful scumbag little asses...




    ....ok, not really.
     
  20. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

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    so..you want a psycho like this guy in charge?
    http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1588013&postcount=4
     

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