Senator Inhofe outraged by the outrage over inmate treatment!

Excellent! Let's be like Saddam eh? We've toppled a dictator, there's just time to install a new regime of brutality.

Thanks for the opinion, but unless you can give convincing examples I'd be tempted to disagree with that. I've stuck with the topic of every post here. I'm disputing the attitudes and opinions expressed here by one or two pro-war ideologues which are based on poor understanding of the issues at hand.

 

There ya go a long blurb of ur irrelavance, how long did that take you..? Get a day job.

 

in fact I agree with the way they were treated, why you ask? many of these photos were taken of interigation investigations. If we must torture a man to prevent the deaths of inocent iraqis than bravo keep it up boys

You took my quote out of context which is really is like cheating in this debate, you know torturing to get information which saves lives is completely within moral justice.

 

so if an enemy soldier has an american POW, is it right for them to torture if need be to find out information of where the american base is or some other information on parts of the american military in the area?

 

if an enemy soldier has an american POW, is it right for them to torture if need be to find out information of where the american base is or some other information on parts of the american military in the area?

That's precisely what we're hearing from some Republicans. Any atrocity is acceptable, period.

 

Living in the UK, I haven't seen any coverage of Republicans attempting to justify what went on at Abu Ghraib. All we get is how the Bush administration has utterly condemned the prisoner abuses. This thread about Senator Inhofe was the first time I knew that there were people officially defending the torture.

Judging from the views of some of those on this board it would seem to be the natural fallback position of right wingers to say that the torture is "morally justifiable". But the Republican administration itself seems to realise that it is uttersly indefensible and that to do anything other than to condemn it is to lose any claim to moral superiority.

Just how widespread is the view "officially" held among Republicans?

 

“You are becoming increasingly gnomic in your search for adequate metaphors... I certainly hope you're not suggesting that you regard people in the same way that you regard lethal centipedes. If so you are a dangerous man.”

Guess I’m a dangerous man. Quite the opposite the centipede would live because it flees me and only defends itself using lethal means. People who hurt children are on the level of rabid or attack dogs! They die or stay the hell away from my house. In the case of an occupation the Army’s house is Iraq.

A neighbor left his attack dog loose before I built my home fence and I asked him to secure it because my kids couldn’t play outside. He smiled at me and told me to fuck off! Hey there is no law to require him to secure his dog. I laid his headless dog on his driveway the next day and smiled at him wiping off my machete as I went back to get the head out of the trunk. As long as I suck breath into my body No one bothers my children, me or those I love. Rabid dog and child molesters or murders “inside my house” receive justice no court will choose to debate.

“you are proposing a world in which the strong are free to kill those who are defenceless.”

No you are! They kill children and you respect them as humans, send the Red Cross and lawyers looking for how America caused such imbalance. They killed children and need to be pressed for information to stop killing more children. Not tortured but PRESSURED at high altitude if necessary!

I know the issue is abuse but the parallel issue is the victim’s rights or loss of them through death caused by the rabid dog in human form.

Under UN protection and without remand South Korea captured 30 spies from N. Korea in the 70’s. President Park, Chung Hi built a special chamber in Seoul in a public square and placed the spies in the chamber one at a time leaving only one to use as propaganda. The chamber was a triple hydraulic cutting machine, which cut each body into three equal parts. Bitch about that! The world isn’t tidy!

Changeyourlatitude

 

Changeyourlatitude, HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED FOR THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT?!?!?!?!?!?!?????

 

Basically the army is there to liberate and show the iraqi's that the coalition force is to bring them peace and a stable country. But unfortunately they are showing that there is not that much difference between the two. When they make prisoners engage in homosexual acts and masterbation its worse then any torture or death you can bring upon them, because of there beliefs. It might have been a few but i think its more wide spread then they are telling us. Its sad when they see americans act in such a way. And we cannot compare the two different sides and say " well what they do is much worse ". We live in the free world and our actions must represent our message to them. Sad thing is its only going to get worse.

 

You do know the US army has killed thousands of Iraqi children, don't you? Why doesn't that figure in the picture?

Perhaps this answers the point above - perhaps you don't love Iraqi children? Perhaps their deaths are of less importance to you than other children. If you care about the deaths of innocents then you might want to be concerned about the 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq over the past year by American and British forces.

Certainly. I for one am extremely concerned about the innocent victims caught up in the war - those killed by Iraqi fighters or those killed by US troops. I just don't think we should become monsters guided by red mist when dealing with those responsible. That's the surest way to make mistakes, and to cause more suffering of innocent people. The protections are there for a very good reason. It has been shown that many of those detained by coalition forces are innocent people caught up the chaos. The Red Cross are there to ensure that such innocents get fair treatment. Your policy, guided by anger, would cause more innocent suffering, not less.

 

Changeyourlatitude, did you ever serve in the military? I hope not, or if you did you may have forgotten that you could be in that picture. As one of the guards or the prisoners.

I for one, surely wouldn’t want to be one of the prisoners in the picture. And I can’t see myself as a guard in any of them either.

If captured, military members deserve rights. If detained, civilians also deserve rights.

Now I'm not sure how old you are. But let’s say you or your son were walking to Kroger’s to get food the day after the world trade center attack. The police thought you were connected to it for whatever the reason. Can they do just what we did to the prisoners over there? To the police you are a terrorist until proven otherwise. Tell me how many innocent people were in GITMO Cuba for over a year and release as innocent. Would their presence in the jail warrant torture no matter if they were innocent?

There is no excuse.. Military members have the UCMJ and the Geneva Convention. Civilians, murderers, rapist, terrorists and even Michael Jackson have rights also.

I for one wouldn’t want you or any of those that took part in those pictures in My Military. As in I served and now pay taxes. (along with others from the US on this board who pay taxes) So really that makes it OUR military. I don’t want that action to be the stereotype of what people think of us. I hope others feel the same way. It will be years to live that one down.

 

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Changeyourlatitude, did you ever serve in the military? I hope not, or if you did you may have forgotten that you could be in that picture. As one of the guards or the prisoners.

As a matter of fact I served 20+ years in the Army as a Military Policeman. My last job found me in charge of the police administration and enforcement of the DMZ separating North and South Korea.

I assure those abuses would not of happened on my watch. Interrogation of prisoners is the main reason combative detainees are not killed. The information they possess could save future innocent lives. The methods used were incorrect and actually aided the enemy. High value prisoners should be interrogated with exhausting enthusiasm to save lives of innocent people yet to be killed by their comrades.

Army regulations clearly spell out how prisoners will be treated and handled. In the MP Corps there are three specialties, combat/law enforcement MP MOS (military occupation specialty 95B, which was mine and the MP’s used at the facility, Corrections Specialist MP MOS 95C which operates and is familiar of regulations regarding handling of prisoners and Security MP’s MOS 95D which are used to protect critical and vulnerable facilities such as Nuclear Missiles and the like. These MP’s were mal-assigned. Yet, with basic law enforcement and treaty training there was no excuse for their actions.

In a conventional war where both sides wear uniforms the procedure is to segregate prisoners by rank and value for interrogation. I thought this was the case in the scandal at first and thought the press had blown things out of proportion. I was wrong! The MP’s were an embarrassment for what I served.

In battle, like in a race riot, the bar of proof of guilt is lowered. If a person is in a jewelry shop with a bag of jewelry he is assumed to be a looter. Should investigation reveal he is the owner he would then be released. While some fall in this category they are few, imagine a volcano erupting and you don’t flee. Common sense will tell you if a person from GB for example is on the battle line with lava flowing toward him he is the enemy, not teaching church or doing humanitarian aid. He is held as a combatant as are the uniformed enemy. The bar in court, which he faces in GB, is higher and guilt cannot be assumed by circumstance and he is released. This is not proof of innocence; it is fact the proof beyond doubt wasn’t make to keep him in custody. Logic would say this guy is guilty or how could he have gotten so old being so stupid. The law say set him free, not innocent.

”If captured, military members deserve rights. If detained, civilians also deserve rights”

If civilians captured were driving a truck full of explosives… If civilians were captured with a basement full of IED parts…if military captured burn them and or cut their heads off.

”Now I'm not sure how old you are. But let’s say you or your son were walking to Kroger’s to get food the day after the world trade center attack.”

I’m 56 years old and if my son were caught on the front line of a war in Afghanistan or in Iraq with a room full of IED’s I would not defend him. I raised him to be wiser than that. I don’t think we arrested any kids as suspects on 9-11 yet there were reports of turbine headed people in NJ with tri-pods filming the towers being hit that didn’t get arrested as they celebrated.

General population uniformed prisoners should only give their name; rank and service number and need not provide additional information. Terrorist, on the other hand have information that could save future civilian lives from being torn apart.

”There is no excuse.. Military members have the UCMJ and the Geneva Convention. Civilians, murderers, rapist, terrorists and even Michael Jackson have rights also.”

Actually military members have no rights in the current environment. Did you fall into the draft age group? Have you or your children served in the military? Would you find it correct if the man-boy rifle team that terrorized the DC area was one of 3,000 members guided by a leader if he were captured and not interrogated to find out who the leader and where his location was? What if it were a unstable person who held a loved one in a buried tomb with 48 hours of air supply would your equally support his rights not to tell where your loved one was being held? I’m all with rights when known terrorist cooperate and all for killing them when they don’t. Read how I came to this conclusion on the “Politics” thread “which is worse.”

How would you like your nephew or son to be drafted and give passes to IED/suicide bombers for their rights protection and see them come home in body bags for those people’s rights?

Changeyourlatitude