See Alot Of Different Stuff Here So...

I believe that no current earth religion is correct including atheism. I think that there are just simple facts coupling the obvious limitations of what we can know

1. There is no man in the clouds pulling puppet strings
2. There is a singular origin of everything that in order to avoid paradox must exist forever and always has existed
3. Everything is made of energy similar to electricity. All forces of physics. All beings. All objects. This energy is matter itself and cannot be distroyed. This is supported by the fact that scientifically speaking nothing is actually solid so matter and energy are already the same thing and the only difference is the existence or lack of binding.
4. Following the above principles death is obviously temporary. Wether we retain anything on death or not is mostly irrelevant
5. There can be no perfect copy of anything in the universe. something somewhere will always be marginally different. this applies to everything and will serve to explain that we retain our general habit pattern no matter where we exist because there truely is only one copy of everyone even if the differential detail is minute
6. Following the above though we can change, no matter how many times we die we will always be similar to who we were
7. Following the above the end path of growth of a being is the same truth no matter who the being is so at the end (perfection, enlightenment, nothing left to spiritually learn, etc.) we are all the same being performing different actions to perpetuate and sustain general existence.
8. There has to be multiple worlds/dimensions. Infinity is the only real truth of everything that actually means anything and is meant to be a literal term.
9. Balance is the only perfection that is absolute. Everything is exactly as it is meant to be in every infinite meaning of this term in the same way that you can tell someone something a million times without them understanding what you meant. it has to be at the right place the right time etc.
10. Free will is an irrelevant term that contradicts its own nature. If we are all infinitely unique beings that are all part of the same infinitely encompassing origin then we can never not be doing exactly what we want to be doing or are meant to be doing. its the same thing. We decide what we are meant to be doing. There is no ultimate good or evil just balance created by effect and ourselves. Retribution doesnt always exist in ways we imagine it to. Suffering is relative. Hell is imaginary. At the core of all possibly obtainable knowledge there is only one simple answer that once gained nullifies the need for the cause of certain actions and paths regardless of belief.

Chill youre already dead

 

I've been dead for a long, long time.

 

I agree with this part. The rest sounds like poetry to me.

 

Surely though your agreement is a purely automatic reaction and therefore has no relevance or lack of relevance?

 

I don't think that there is a connection between relevance and freewill.

 

I gotta agree...









This thread is different.


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Why would the opinion of a being with no free will have any value? Surely it's merely an automatic response, not something about which the person holding the opinion has any choice.

 

It has inherent meaning to the being that forms the opinion, and it has meaning to the other beings that being interacts with. Meaning is derived from cognitive processes and beings with brains have cognitive processes even if they don't have free will. Also, why would the opinion of a being with free will have any value?

To call it merely an automatic response glosses over a lot of significant occurrences. First let me be clear that my lack of belief in free will has nothing to do with physical determinism. When a sentient being arrives at a conclusion it usually involves the following types of processes: The being's brain, which is already filled with innate and learned knowledge, comes into contact with new information. The algorithms and heuristics built into that being's brain process this information both in terms of its previous knowledge, and by subjecting it to hypothetical analysis. The new information is subject to both rational and emotional processing. At each step in the process the being is an active participant: That is to say that they are intentionally engaged in this processing, and that is indispensable. The being then finally arrives at its new conclusion or opinion. To refer to that as merely and automatic process seems incorrect to me.

Well now we are potentially going to run into problems bases on the difficulties imposed by language, but I shall try my best. Just because a being does not have free will does not mean that the being has no choice. Emanresu is an autonomous being, by which I strictly mean "Self Ruled" or "Self Governed" to return to the word's roots. This means then that Emanresu's behavior is largely determined by himself. He does things because he wants to, because he thinks they are logical choices, etc. When he chooses to eat sour candy he does it because he likes sour candy and he enjoys the process of eating it, and this is all very meaningful to him.

It makes no difference if it is not "up to me" to decide whether I like sour candy or not. It does not, from my personal view, influence the meaning of the behavior one iota. It may bother you to think that you do not free will, it does not bother me at all. Especially because it still feels like I have free will, and decisions do not come to me automatically. I must exert my intention and reason through things. A very rewarding experience in itself.

A further point: It is not that I simply believe that I do not have free will. I actually believe that free will is an unintelligible concept, and when people use the phrase "Free Will" they might as well be saying "Blipity Blopity Bloop". They have the same amount of meaning.

So to close: I find life as an autonomous being to be very rewarding and meaningful (and I loosely identify myself as an existentialist, but not in any strict way).

Incidentally this is why I am so adamant about free societies, because in a world without free will self rule is the best you can get.

 

Here we go with the atheism is a religion thing again...fail

Is there a word anyone approves of that means simply no belief ( 'A') in anything man has ever written about god or gods ( theism)? please tell me

 

Agreed. That's why I ignored that part.

 

These are things I have come to believe in my time existing here. I disagree that it is entirely atheistic. Just that interpretation of "God" is different in the sense of being that there is nothing but god so no separate entity exists. Free will is irrelevant and contradicting because if we dont have free will no choice was made, but if we do have free will our choices are based on formed opinions, information, and instinctual impulse so there never was another choice to begin with. This is why lack of will and will are the same

 

In other words for "freedom of will" to truely exist would be paradoxial because it would have to be based on absolutely nothing at all. complete uninterpretable spontaniety

 

"free will" as an argument being relevant to anything is only so because of the way humans use the argument against absolute destiny when they dont realise the true nature of infinity and quantum mechanics meaning there is nothing but destiny because every possibility already exists

 

No free will = no autonomy. No matter how much processing goes on, the result is not a choice. Only a being with free will can choose. If you exercise choice in anything whatsoever, that's free will. 'Self government or self rule' are simply aspects of free will. In a deterministic cosmos, these things can't exist. They would simply be an illusion. A cherished illusion maybe, but false nonetheless.

 

Yes but Strong Atheism actually equates with a belief in no God. Did you know this?

 

I'd like to answer these as I think I can contribute..

Being an automatic reaction and having relevance are two different things; your immune system is an automatic reaction, yet it is relevant when discussing your health.

Relevance is what we call the quality of "fit"; how well does when we're looking at "fit" with the larger picture of what we care about. In this case there is zero loss or gain of relevance due to free will being an illusion; you will still care exactly as much or as little as you do about any given topic.

"Why would the immune system of a being with no free will have any value? Surely it's merely an automatic response, not something about which the person holding the body has any choice"

Value is seen in the eye of the beholders; all beholders lack free will; therefore the perception of value is also itself an automatic response. You could flip it and say "Why would the opinion of the value of something hold any value" and keep going in infinite regress but that's a loop. The truth is that in any given moment you will value something exactly as much as you are able to in that given moment.

Precisely the case it would appear.

 

But what makes you think that we live in a deterministic Universe? That went out with the 1800s. Relativity isn't the full story, is it?

 

How do you know that we lack free will?

 

And that would constitute a religion somehow, but only to make other (actual) religious people feel good about themselves. I get it.

From now on, I have the spirituality of a frog. That is all. I don't care to discuss it anymore.

This shit is pointless

 

Well, it depends on what definition is being used.

Merriam Webster definition of Religion

a. the state of a religious
b.(1) the service or worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2. a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3. scrupulous conformity

4. a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


I would say that (b)2 through 4 all apply to Atheism, honestly.

We could get into a discussion of what it means for something to be "religious". Personally, I think that that word can be used a lot of ways. One can "ride their bike religiously" and that just means that it's something that they highly value without really saying anything more about it.