Say No ! To Id Cards !!!!!

well i guess that is the case then ... i do not trust a government that lies to go to war (such as the US government) or any other governments who's policies are bought and sold by the highest corporate bidder.

governments have always been known to be corrupt. yes, it is necessary to have laws; but to give blind trust to the government is, in my opinion, being way too trustworthy considering they will do whatever is in their power to make money and gain more power before looking out for the people that suffer the most because of their decisions.

i'm sure the Cubans trust Castro too

 

what makes you so sure?
I mean you sound like someone reasonable I dont think youre hoping just for a bit of luck are you? so my question is whats your logic here ?

Ok take this for example - some time ago Tony Blairt introduced a bill which became known so much by the name - "the disolution of parliament act " that hansard - the directory of statute - listed it as that.
Now that act stated that tony blair could or any future government in the interests of the nation could disolve parliament and act as a one party state - when asked when he was going to do that and why - Blair said "no-one will ever use it " well
ask yourself - why make a law youre never going to use?
its ridiculous and more to the point if a law enables something to happen then one day it will happen ! they dont just sit there making this stuff up - they do it because the want that power

well said - there is no reason to trust government anymore. Perhaps if they hadnt been so corrupt for so long we would have some reason to trust that things would work out nice and for the right intentions but theres a strong reason to suggest these are not good or nice people at all

 

One thing, it was this goverment that drew up the Human rights act. If they wished to destroy that [human rights] , why put that in place.
I can believe it will be a legal human rights nightmare. I can even believe that it may not work. I do not think that it will be used in a suspect manor , to track and manage society, like cattle. No i'm not hoping for a bit of luck. I just read and listen to the debates and the legislative monster that is surrounding this issue. If it was designed to be a controling menace and a hinderance to our civil liberty. I don't think it would have been rolled out in the way it has. Maybe the civil rights arguement has not been properly made by the goverment. to belay the perception vast amounts of people have about this. The people that believe this to be a good idea, are judged to be right wing blind sheep idiots [on the whole]. Imho it will end up like a lot of things, every now and again the media will highlight a case that proves that the goverment have abused this system , Shami Chakrabarti will have her earnest and concerned face plastered all over the TV.. saying 'well i told you so'. The media will make perceptions stick to how they are already viewed. Regardless of the overall picture.

No i agree that they do not sit there and make this stuff up. Imho it is to plug legal loopholes and fix legislative oversight. I'm not a lawyer by any strech of the imagination. I just think most of these types of issues are to fix [well atleast try] the system, rather than to 'grab power'. You might want to drag that e.g up as i've not heard about that one.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmhansrd.htm

 

got to admit Chakrabarti is not my cup of tea either - before I go on let me say that its good to talk with someone who is pro this but also has good arguments albeit (in my opinion) misguided.
So anyway yeah chakrabati is just too bourgeois and not on the ball enough to be a good oponent to anything, not enough matters to media stars to make anything that much worth fighting for. Chakrabati is a lamer in my opinion

So again really, I can't argue against your conviction that it will all be for the best - but to me that is not something we should hope for but something that is written into law. I do not for one second believe these laws are anything but part of a set of laws which aim to be the soft end of the police powers bill - and the antiterrorist laws. I also believe they are the indication that we have simply been led to the fact that dress it up how you will - its a police state isnt it ?
otherwise
How do you answer this question?
If I go overseas I need a passport but why do I need a passport in my own country. The parliament has no right to tell me I need its permission to walk outside my house. They are the peoples servant not its master. With an imposition like a id card they transform government into a master. A police state with a democratic process tacked on as a secondary consideration
Thats something millions in this country will not accept if I have anything to do with it

Their power is over the people - they can only be this corrupt if they also have the power to crush rebellion and that is precisely what all their police state
laws are goiung to do - they hated that peace march in london where 4Million people turned up - they will have the power to stop people attending. After going to manyt demos I do not trust the police or government one bit and all these laws are being introduced with not a single word of dissent in the media not one!

 

The home office at its discression has the right to withdraw this card and with it the right of the cardholder to leave their house. Also you will not be able to move without first altering that data. Failure to present that card or update its info will result in severe fines and/or imprisonment. No card no job -why even if they are not going to use it should we put that power over you in their hands - why give up your own autonomy? They also may refuse to issue another.

As for your disbelief that this is a police state -
erm what were you expecting - stuff that happens in the film 1984 in glorious technicolour. Look around you - it doesnt have to look like a science fiction film - it just has to look like life does now with laws like we've got. Saying its a police state is an indication of what powers the police have

If they dont like you or your opinions whats to say they cant take that card from you. Guilty till proven innocent - what if some jerk in the home office or police fits you up ?
Labour is trying to get laws that says we are guilty till proven innocent. So the home office (the police) can fit anyone up you like. Heres an example - the laws that they are bringing in on certain bills to do with the criminal courts say that the police may put it to you that you committed a crime - now their evidence may not prove you did - but you have to prove you didnt. So I say to you - prove you didnt steal my wallet - come on you were in the area - you havent got it now but you did it didnt you? how you gonna prove that? only by finding the person who did it or the wallet with fingerprints on it!
I dont care if its being watered down we need these laws taken off the statute books. Your trust in government is entirely unsupported by history
government is the only aggressor in this country to the extent it now doesnt trust the people. The id laws are all part of this police state theyre building

so my ultimate question is
how far would these people have to go before you lost your trust in them? give me an example of how far you are prepared to go before they lose your confidence - to the extent people are disappearing from work - sacked because they attended a political meeting by a group they dont like- because out of mallice the home office withdrew the card for 60 days while you prove that you didnt break any laws and cant go outside? who cares whether that will happen or not - its whether they have the power to make it happen that counts
Otherwise you like the idea you are existing at their whim - not there but for the grace of god go I, but there but for the grace of the home office? I have to say anyone who cant see the danger is blind - I'm sorry I have to say that - I cant understand it any other way

 

All this talk of ID cards. Where can i get one?

 

I'm not even going to dignify that comment

 

haha, you have an obscure sense of humour. I'm not going to dignify that retort. I will however explain that my sarcasm is often wasted, I'll never carry an ID card and my future children, grandchildren...will never be chipped. So long as peeps like you can articulate the dangers of hidden agendas. As I'm sure you're already aware, these chips are also a future possibility. First the cards, then... Who knows, a brave new world under the law of the mighty Ford.

 

Nice one - yeah I never spotted the irony actually - glad I didnt go off on a rant -

Maybe you will join a resistance group yourself - actually I have been saying join no2id a lot but recently I am wondering if they are all they are cracked up to be - theyre not really open to new ideas on their website and actually delete posts they dont understand -disagreement they can handle - innovation seems beyond them.
However - I dont know any site better for the arguments and still think they offer the largest lobby group -

I am definitely not going to carry their idcard and basically will sacifice everything to prove that I am not a number but a free man.
(the prisoner)

 

next thing you know we'll all have barcodes tattooed on us ... and not as some kind of protest gesture.

 

If they make everyone have a barcode there is a homeless guy lives by us who has one tattoed on his neck - looks like he's the only conformist there is - its us homeowners and workers that are dissenting

 

people in newcastle are know as barcoders .......barcodes and chips can i have a bit of salt and vinegar on that please .

 

thanks for replying! its a very lengthy post you made and a lot of requests for exact info - I'm just collating all the url's I need to the info on government websites and to laws etc.
To be honest though - in a couple of places you seem to epress surprise at some of the powers they have - hopefully when you read for yourself some indisputable evidence such as the actual laws as passed then you will see the full extent of what they have done to make this a more rigid and frankly intollerable state to live in.

I hadnt realised you didnt know the extent of what theyve done - you argued with such conviction and accuracy I thought you were well informed but just took a differing opinion -

I believe some of your questions can be answered by this link to the actual bill as passed by parliament
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/60015--a.htm#11

there is more evidence than this as reported by the home office but
I will reply on a point by point basis later as its now 3am
time for sleep

 

One question: Are ID cards a path too progression or to oppression? Maybe that was two questions! The answer to that may hold the truth. The truth or answer to that question may only be in the proof of eating the pudding. The question that remains is: Are you willing to risk it for future generations? Personally, I'm not, too much power over my kin is not something I'm willing to give up so easily. Where did all those cultures and clans of our ancestors go? I believe in unity and understanding, but I don't believe total government control to a point that we have to prove our own existence. What's wrong with the system we already have? I can quite easily prove that I am who I say I am ( Alex Blah, Blah Avenue....blah blah blah). So why the need for this new card? All this card does is give the regime more power, what does it do for you? As an individual?


Ok, so I had more than 1 question to ask, don't we all?

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/60015--a.htm

(b) indicates the arbitrary nature of whom the secretary of state will believe has his/her approval. This would indicate that the card is not merely a device against illegal immigrants but can be used as a government approval list.
that very clause is not a mistake or poorly indicated but a fact that this gives the home secretary or secretary of state the right to a discressionary withdrawal of the card

Not quite the same thing. Acts of law will make it illegal for people without a card to have a job. If the home secretary withdraws your card you are not entitled to be on the street - therefore you cannot have a job - loss of card = loss of job at the home secretaries whim.
from the 2006 act

so section 33(8) which FOR SOME STRANGE REASON IS LISTED AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ACT (I wonder why) says the id card is a permit to travel

Section 11. The Home Secretary can withdraw permission [ 11(3)(b) ] for someone to have a card, or simply list it as requiring re-issue [ 11(2)(e) ].
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/60015--a.htm#11

If they withdraw my card - how do I go outside my house without breaking the law?

If the government says you will have our card , then they are not acting as a servant but as a master. My point is that I do not believe government has anything to back up its claims to be a legitimate authority other than it has force at its disposal.
If I refuse and enough other people refuse to carry it or use it then it will fail or they will be forced to make the laws more just so people like me feel they are good laws. They will have to use force against me - at least - to make me kneel in submission to their evident police state tactics and then and upon my release from prison I will again burn my card - they will not and cannot make me carry that card.

It is evident to me that the rich are paranoid of the poor and feel they are a moral collective who have the right to rule - but they are wrong they are just as corrupt and their right to rule is by our compliance or by our consent - I dont give up my right to dissent that easily - I am no fool
and they believe that we are fools otherwise why put a load of utter nonesense on their home office site about the card merely being a way to get better banking services etc?

For all that tin-pot monarchies army and all that cesspit of a parliaments police - they will not have compliance from me unless they imprison me or make their laws honest and just.
and on my release I will not comply - i will burn their card till they repeal the law or amend it

 

wow man thats scarrey !
why are they doing this though. I mean who's country is this.
All people have 2 do is like say who they are and show their birth certificate and driving licence if id is needed and may be if real proof is needed that carnt be forged they should just have a picture database where you can log in to the goverment and download a picture of someone

 

wait till I do a post about the National Heath database ! then see if youre scared

Britain is becoming the words first database state