Satan... biblical hero?

Ok.. this thread is too good to let go of yet.. although it's gone pretty much offtopic.

First: it's really kinda freaky when people speak in 'third person'.. (like when I would say: velvet thinks occam is freaky)..

Second: Kharakov.. I think Marvin would've killed himself by now trying to win that discussion

Third: to get back ontopic.. the question 'Satan.. biblical hero' is really VERY simple when you think of it.. the Bible is written with help of 'The Holy Spirit' according to Christians and is therefor a solely Christian book.. 'propaganda' if you will. So Satan can NEVER be a hero in the Bible. Therefor.. Satan is not a biblical hero. Period. However, the question remains if he is a hero when you don't take the bible as primaire source.

 

Velvet

Thankyou...And dont worry.
People tend to call new perspectives,,,'freaky'.

Occam

 

Or if you don't take the accepted protestant/catholic cannon as the "bible". remember their were 100s of books used by early christians that were deemed heretical 3-4 centuries after Christ.

 

Yup yup.. very true.. there are a lot of deutrocanonical/apocryphical (cath./pro. if I remember correctly) books and peices out there that are interesting.. the Bible as it is nowaday, whether Catholic of Prostestant is very limited.

 

Occam

You are one freaky dude,
With all your new perspectives,
And rubbish.

Haha

velvet:

Simply because we are speaking of the Bible
Does not mean that Satan cannot be a hero.
Speaking of the Bible as a literary work
By a first century author,
Whether fictional or not,
Who determines who the "hero" is?
Is the hero God? Jesus? Moses?
Keep in mind, these three most likely candidates
Are not present in the majority of the Bible's stories.
So who is the "hero?"
Are heroes heroic?
God brought on the death of many people by flooding the world.
When Moses un-parted the Red Sea, many men died as well.
Are these deeds heroic?
Life is a tragedy, in my mind at least.
And in all tragedies, the hero has a "heroic flaw."
If God or Jesus or Moses is the hero,
Then they are flawed ... at least to me.
In many literary works, many people have different interpretations
As to who the hero really is.
Who is to say that Satan is not the hero?
After all ... Satan did not kill anyone.
He just turned into a snake and offered advice
For seeking enlightenment.

This does not sound so horrid to me ...

Edit: I'm sorry, I meant, Satan turned into a serpent, not a snake.

 

Hikky.. try not to hit the 'enter' key so often...

But besides that.. according to the bible, unless you accept Jesus as your saviour and be nice, you're gonna rot away in hell (sucky place according to bible, not nice) instead of going to paradise (Jesus loves you long time, yes yes).. according to that same book, Satan is Jesus/Gods biggest enemy, therefor, Satan not nice to humans.. therefor.. Satan can not be Hero like in comic books..

Unless you have a totally different definition of hero....

 

velvet:

I was referring to the literary definition of hero,
Not the comic book definition.
Certainly Moses didn't have x-ray vision,
And Jesus the ability to shapechange into a werewolf ...

And I'd like some text with my carriage returns,
Thank
you.

 

Hikaru

Is not a hero one willing to sacrifice their life to save others?

Thus the term 'sports hero' is a linguistic and rational farce.

And Occam likes your 'EnterKeyFrequencey' [EKF] just fine.
Fare easier to read than a block of text 1280 resolution wide.

Occam

 

Ah, but who IS to say what a hero is?
A hero may be someone who is looked up to by thousands of others,
A hero may be a martyr,
A hero may also be, like Romeo,
An idiot who makes mistakes which cost him his life.
There are many definitions of the word "hero,"
So who is to say who the "hero" of any story is?

By the way,
Having a high EKF allows one to ...
... place emphasis ...
On certain words
(and phrases)
To more accurately control the flow of speech
And direct attention
To the IMPORTANT words.

 

When writing about heroes and villains: there is the hero (protagonist) and the villain (antagonist).

Literal definition of these (courtesy of m-w.com):

protagonist:1 a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or story) b : a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event
2 : a leader, proponent, or supporter of a cause : CHAMPION

antagonist:1 : one that contends with or opposes another : ADVERSARY, OPPONENT

Satan (translation from Hebrew): Adversary

In the bible it warns against saying bad (evil) means good:
Isaiah 5:20:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

not like the modern usage:
"He's a big bad wolf in your neighborhood
Not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good" Courtesy Run DMC

So having the literal name adversary means that Satan was not the protagonist of the bible (hero), but was instead the antagonist (villain).

Peter piper picked peppers but Run rocked rhymes....

 

With a brain the size of a planet...

 

yeah.. wearly I sit here, pain and misery my only companions.. so why stop now just when I'm hating it?

 

Hikaru

You speak a Truth... Maybe 'hero' is like 'beauty'.
We all call it something different...

Occam bases his description on a person that will sacrifice the most valuable thing they have [existance] for another.
A dull and pragmatic view..no doubt. But actually an admission that
deeply held emotion is a greater thing than reason.


Occam

 

I think you read the hitchikers guide one too many times, try non-fiction, it is more useful, imho.

Blessings, BG13

 

Re: tv preachers. You missed the boat Kharakov, they nauseate me.
I have not had tv for 8 years now, and their criminal manipulation of desperate people is a big part of why. That and real life seems more fun.

false beliefs I have grown out of? lol, I used to be like you.....telling others with sincere conviction, I was right, they were wrong, and that was that. Now I see the arrogance of such presumption. You say you know the truth, but I say you don't know mine, and though I am not certain of it, I doubt you ever will.

Your beliefs are very important to you, as are mine, and everyone elses. When someone tells me their beliefs are fact, and mine are false, I need to hear a damn good reason for it. You did not give me that, as no one has, and I don't expect one any time soon. Cherish your truth, I do, and have enough respect for my critical thinking skills, rational thought, and logical reasoning, to grant me the freedom to believe differently than you. I don't want to change your beliefs, and they do not cause me distress, but when you try to change mine, I must inform you, you are in for a tough go. I am stubborn, but if you do convince me I am wrong about me, and you know more about what I need to believe, and need to think, I will gladly admit I was mistaken. I think I was wrong before, once or twice, and it didn't bother me to learn it.

 

That sounds eerily familiar Occam........'There is no greater gift than this, that a man would lay down his life for his friends.'
Isn't that pretty much what you said? Looks like you two agree....And me too. Dull and pragmatic? I disagree there. Courageous, inspiring, wise, and rarely lived up to, would be my description of that view.

lol..................logically, reason is greater than emotion, but my heart tells me you are right. The last ten years or so, I have sided with my heart, and wow, what a difference. Deeply held emotion is pure reason, imho.

 

Like what.. the Bible?

 

lol, well, some would argue that is fiction.........I say it is a richly embellished, much editted record of ancient human activities, sprinkled throughtout with a fairly large amount of straight out fiction.

Daniel Goleman, "Emotional Intelligence."
William Glasser, Psychiatrist, "The Choice Theory."
Allen and Delair, "Cataclysm."

These are three I found good.

 

Hehehe.. ok.. you passed my 'are you a fundy bible-thumper' test But never, ever say anything remotely or implicitly negative about HHG! Darnit! hehehe..

Don't know the books you mention.. but at the moment I'm drowning in study-related literature.. and the book I'm reading for 'fun' is Satyricon by Petronius so... I keep myself busy

 

But never, ever say anything remotely or implicitly negative about HHG!


If I knew what HHG stood for, it would be easier to avoid accidentally doing so.


Hmmm, Happy Haha Girl?

Can I say Satan is not so great? Sure, he is probably just a misunderstood rebelb who means well and has good intentions, but is just a bit confused, and has been portrayed unfairly by the antagonistic media?