Safer WITH, or WITHOUT, Gun Control? USA -vs- UK

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Fyrenza, Mar 21, 2009.

  1. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

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    :confused:

    This has been the whole main point of every pro gun person in this thread, that law abiding people should be allowed to own guns
     
  2. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    mad


    Have you ever read any of my posts on this subject?

    Or do you just react to anything that doesn’t perfectly fit in with your viewpoint?

    Please read again what I wrote over three years ago.

    And then think about it.

    Then maybe go and read some of my posts in this thread

    *
     
  3. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

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    But self protection is one of the main reasons to own a gun, and I'd say they're more in the right then those that do for hunting. Guns are a solution to an exiting problem sometimes, nobody goes around killing people, breaking into houses, stores, ect though because of guns
     
  4. cadcruzer

    cadcruzer Sailing the 8 seas

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    Sure do, how about answering the questions I already asked? Who decides if they're legitimate or relevant enough?
     
  5. honeyfugle

    honeyfugle pumpkin

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    I think this thread needs a shock statement to liven it up a little.

    All gun users should be locked in a room with each other for 6months with their shotguns, and the public and scientists will observe what they do as sanity depletes from them.
     
  6. cadcruzer

    cadcruzer Sailing the 8 seas

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    So, how do "We" take/get the guns away from the bad guys?

    Pass a few more Gun Control Laws?
     
  7. Hippie McRaver

    Hippie McRaver Senior Member

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    I got an idea, anti gunners can have CA, the rest is ours!
     
  8. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    The question is why are these people criminals with guns that they seem willing to use?

    The simplistic reply would be that they’re criminals or that people are all ‘sons of bitches’.

    But are people born criminals, born with a gun in their hand, no.

    Many people here ask how are we to take the guns off the criminals.

    But surely isn’t the more pertinent question – why have these people turned to crime and why do people seem to think that violence (or the threat of it) is a legitimate way to get what they want?

    The further a person travels on a criminal path the harder it will be to get them off it and by the time a person uses a gun for a criminal offence the damage has most likely already been done.

    So wouldn’t the most sensible course be to try and limited as much as possible the number of people turning to crime and working to get people off the criminal path as soon as possible if they do take that course?

    And wouldn’t it be sensible to try and work out why so many in a society believe that violence (or threat of it) is a legitimate means of getting what they want?

    That is what I’ve been trying to highlight pro-gunners don’t seem to be asking the right questions too often they are reacting to the problem not looking for the source of it.
     
  9. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Oh please read my posts so I don’t have to keep repeating myself over and over.

    Guns are not a solution to the problem they are a symptom of the problem.

    People fear (and many seem to like to promote that fear to sell guns) and turn to guns as a ‘solution’ to that perceived fear.

    But that doesn’t lessen the fear and it does little or nothing to reduce crime. A crime that is stopped by a gun is still a crime committed it was going to be committed if it was successful or not, now others think it does by threat and intimidation but to me that just adds to the fear and the general societal belief that violence (or the threat of it) is a legitimate way to get what you want.

    Anyway the problem is that it seems to me that people that turn to guns don’t seem that interested in real solutions because they come seemly to think of their gun as the solution.
     
  10. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

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    Guns are not a symptom of the problem though, a criminal with a gun who's going to use it to murder someone has made that decision long before. Most murders in this country are pre-meditated, and normally gang/drug related. You make it seem like the country is the OK corral and drunk people are getting into fights at bars and firing their revolvers at each other.
     
  11. Hippie McRaver

    Hippie McRaver Senior Member

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  12. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

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    And people say a well armed populace isn't a valid defense against government tyranny, like jesus these are just some guys on a range having fun for the night.
     
  13. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Mad

    Can you in any way substantiate your assertion that the desire for a gun for self-protection is not a symptom?

    The desire for the gun would seem to a reaction to perceived threat – in other words it is a symptom of that fear and if the fear was lessoned then the desire is likely to disappear. If they didn’t feel threatened they wouldn’t feel the need to have a gun.

    *

    This would be a lot easier if you read the posts in the thread

    Again - are people born criminals, born with a gun in their hand, of course not.

    So isn’t the pertinent question – why have these people turned to crime and why do people seem to think that violence (or the threat of it) is a legitimate way to get what they want?

    The further a person travels on a criminal path the harder it will be to get them off it and by the time a person uses a gun for a criminal offence the damage has most likely already been done.

    So wouldn’t the most sensible course be to try and limited as much as possible the number of people turning to crime and working to get people off the criminal path as soon as possible if they do take that course?

    And wouldn’t it be sensible to try and work out why so many in a society believe that violence (or threat of it) is a legitimate means of getting what they want?

    That is what I’ve been trying to highlight pro-gunners don’t seem to be asking the right questions too often they are reacting to the problem not looking for the source of it.
     
  14. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    *


    Please you two, read the posts and maybe what I linked to earlier

    Can guns save you from suppression?
    http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=253937

    If you have some counter arguments then present them since these assertions come across as just hollow macho posturing
     
  15. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

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    Because we live in reality where crime happens and there are bad people and stuff, things, guns, ect. You've yet to show how guns are a cause of the problem vs the socio-economic causes that near most people would agree with.

    Yes, guns will save you from suppression, again it goes back to the mere threat of a gun. Your points in the original post in the thread you linked are groups to a specific cause, not the nation as a whole, it's point is not valid.
     
  16. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Anybody here read this before?...............................


    Well in New York we have big time gun control and almost everybody is plenty happy with it. Except perhaps radio D J Don Imus who famously had such a hard time obtaining a carry permit in NYC. His powerful friends finally hooked him up with the paperwork. He reported on-air of how he was confronted outdoors by a plainclothed dective who alertly noted the carrying holster and questioned him closely to insure public peace.

    New York City is doing plenty to address the social problems here. They have reformed the corrupt public relief system and culled the welfare rolls by a quarter million. Renaming welfare centers: reemployment centers. They seek to get people back to work where they can win back self-esteem and sufficency.

    The huge prison construction program began in the 80's houses a huge inmate population and employs every third person who lives north of Albany, NY. A big jobs program for Upstate New York.

    Police staffing was increased and targeted to problem areas.

    New York City began by gathering up the MICA's (Mentally Ill Crack Addict) from the streets and placing them in institutions. however, New York was challenged in court by homeless advocates who won the day with the argument that as long as the MICA's were not harming anybody they were free to sleep on ventalation grates and church steps. So much with dealing with social problems.


    :(
     
  17. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Seems like in California, you can be just pulled off the street and institutionalized for your own good. See Mischa Barton and Charlie Sheen, who was actually pulled out of a hooker filled limo and sent away for re-hab.

    Not in New York City though.
     
  18. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    My Cousin has a job with The State of New York, he is a Physcharist (sp)
    His job is to monitor street people helping to insure that they take their medications. They run a fake soup kitchen in The Bronx. No the food is real;...... the kitchen is just run with a big assist from State Mental Health agencies. It exists to pull these folks off the streets and get them inside where profesionals can assess thier current mental state cajole them to take thier pills and check a box on the form. The meals are just window dressing for the mental health operation.
     
  19. Dave_techie

    Dave_techie I call Sheniangans

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    Guns, and gun control.

    Frankly, if you want a gun in the U.K, you can get one.

    if you want a gun in the U.S. you can get one.

    yes, you may very well be breaking the law either way, the crime rate isn't so clean cut as "guns v. no guns" that's a shallow and ridiculous conclusion to draw. there are much deeper social issues involved than who finds it hard to get a gun. and what kinds of gun are convenient to own.

    I LOVE guns, I think handguns should be confiscated, melted down, and no longer manufactured anywhere in the world, I don't honestly even think police should have handguns except for in VERY extreme circumstances, and if you are in the military you don't need anything smaller than a p-90 anyway.

    this argument is just going in circles making rhetorical arguments and it's not going to be effective in changing anyone's mind about anything.

    I have VERY strong beliefs about gun safety and ethics. (it's always loaded, yes, you just unloaded it, it's still loaded, you do not point a gun at something unless you are going to kill or destroy it, and if you do kill something you be a decent enough human being to kill it in one shot, if you can't shoot that well you shouldn't have a gun in your hands) and I'm not going to be shifted in those.

    I do think there is a fair bit of ignorance about guns in modern society though. which saddens me.
     
  20. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Crime in America is at its lowest level in 40 years.

    All of those newly constructed jails are brimming with bad guys ( and a few marijuana growers too) Our police forces are at thier over-funded, over-staffed best.

    Is fear of the bad guy really legit?
     

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