Rumsfield bans cameras in military compounds!

Skip,
You and I should wish.. (or 'pray' if you like) that those American soldiers in the Iraqi prison were Christians (or Xtians as you like to say).

If only they did believe they were representing Christianity - they would have stopped for a minute and realised that sick, humiliating, sexual rape and torture were anything but Christian.

Not only that - I only Wish Saddam really did believe he was ruling in the name of Islam!
If he really did pick up a Koran then he wouldnt have been so quick to spray mustard Gas (WMD"s) on villages of poor people!

Well, Thank God at least one soldier was Christian-like and reported that prisoner abuse to the authorities (who were Christian enough to do something about it).

 

You notice I said Christian-like. Stopping violence and harm is Christian-like.
So dont bother explaining monopoly, something which liberal agnostics dont have either.

Oh really.. 'Many MANY' eh?
Well MANY MANY MANY more do their level best to ease pain and suffering and bring ends to wars.

Yep.. and MANY MANY opponents to the Iraq war like to Rape, torture and murder too.
MANY MANY Hippies like to Rape and Torture and Murder people too.
Many in the name of 'freedom' and 'liberalism' too.

Human nature certainly IS the same and 1000 years of Christianity has changed that WHEN people are willing to allow it.
Unfortunately.. many people including Christians acting outside their Spirt and anti-war protestors do NOT follow their own principles.

How then do you put blame on the principles?

Its peoples heart that fail them - that we can certainly agree on 100%.

 

yeah, just because the pres CLAIMS to be christian doesn't mean he follows any of the christian concepts or that this war has ANYTHING to do with what christ wants in his followers' lives. this is power, this is greed, and just because someone can throw a christian flag on it it doesn't mean it's a christian battle.

 

Do you mean that? If this wasn't just a slip of the keyboard, then you could not be further from the truth! I assume you must have mistyped.

Anyway, banning cameras could not send a worse message to the world! Rumsfeld is falling apart if he thinks this was a good idea. The message he needs to give the world in order to to regain confidence is that the military are now "cleaner than clean", not that there is more to hide!

It also seems to give the lie to the oft-repeated idea that this was "a few troops dishonouring their country" - something Bush said again the other night. All evidence seems to indicate that this behaviour was institutional and widespread. But well, if Bush says something often enough it becomes true in the mind of the American people - like 9/11 and Iraq being linked...

 

No offence intended Skip....but how the hell do you know this?

I see these words being said alot but other people and I dont get how you could possibly know this.

how do you know these men arent just as bad a the US invasion?

How do you know that these guys arent foriegn members of Al-qaeda that have been coming into Iraq and causing trouble?how do you know..that these same men didnt shoot a bunch of Iraqi children and leave them in a rubble pile and scream that it was Americans?


If they are...arent you aware that they want you dead??

they want you dead. they dont give a shit that you think their mistreatment was bad..they dont give a shit that you hate Bush and Rumsfeld...they dont give a shit that you think the war is wrong.


you are a white man who runs a website while living it up in Amsterdam...one of the bastians of human decadence and sin with their legal drugs and prostitution.they would kill you in a heartbeat without a second thought.



How do you really know that these guys are family men defending their home?

did you personally ask them and then simply take their word at face value?



American people arent the only humans on Earth capable of lying out their asses.People around the world do it everyday....especially if it fits an agenda.




I would just like to know because people keep making these claims...and I'm sorry but NONE of us Americans or Europeans sitting in our comfy homes on our expensive,resource-sucking computers,reading whatever on the net ACTUALLY knows what is really going on because we ARENT there.


The optomist in me hopes that these guys are family-defenders in Iraq.Iraqi citizens...because that would truly enforce our wrongful existance in Iraq. HOWEVER...the realist in me cant help but be aware and remember who we are actually fighting against.

People who are so fanatical in their faith and hate that they would pose as Iraqis(like they do as cells before blowing up trains and buildings)so that if they get killed or captured...it would be a strike against coalition forces.This also gives them the opportunity to kill soldiers.


you accuse the people of the USA who arent totally against this war of being blind.


But arent you also being blind against the reality of the world?


there is a massive army of God(or Allah if you want to get technical)who's core belief(according to their interpretation of the Q'uaran)is that the second coming of Muhammed cannot happen unless all the non-muslims are killed or converted.They will sink to any low to make sure this happens because their love for their God is greater then any love for man.God above any other.


The reality is....is this isnt a war we can fight traditionally and win...and especially if innocent people(Iraqis,Americans,Europeans..ect)are getting caught in the crossfire,it should be avoided.we ought to be concentrating on protecting our populace and should be concentrating on eliminating any hiding cells.


I've often wondered that if people saw photos of US soldiers treating SS soldiers this way....would there be the same outrage?

or is this hate-mongering so blind that no matter who it could be in those photos...the US is the eternal great evil.

the realist in me thinks the latter because some people are so damned fanatical in their hate....it could be Hitler or Satan himself on the end of that leash..and they would still call the US military horrible.


if you knew anything about humans and human history....you would know that the US is not the great evil.

the great evil is mankind's inability to accept one another and be tolerant of our differences.

This is not the first wrongful invasion in the history of the world and it wont be the last...when we are all dead and buried....countries will still be killing each other.People will still be killing each other. Over land, over religion, over ethnicity, over resources.


How can we evolve if we deny the realities of the world?

I am militantly against the Iraqi invasion....but I will not allow myself to become blind because of it.

I refuse to become a sheeple for either end of the spectrum.


I refuse to believe that the US is this fantastic moral country who's fighting evil terrorists and the only way to do so is to invade a country and take it's oil and spread democracy.

I refuse to believe that the US is an evil conglomerate and Al-Qaeda is just a fairytale used to stir up patriotism..and all the non-americans of the world are just victims.

both of these belief systems are bullshit.


and we are all gonna pay because people like to swim around in this bullshit because it's comforting to cling to a zealous ideal.

It's comforting to believe that you are the most just and moral person on earth.It's comforting to think that your values and ideas are the right ones. It's comforting knowing that other people are being killed for your beliefs whether it's US soldiers or Iraqi civilians.

as long as it isnt you that's doing the dying.

 

otter, that was beautiful. extremely level-headed of you. i'm emailing it to my mom.

 

Nicely Put Cynical Otter.

I feel the same way about most of this.

Yes, I question whether the US is only interested in 'liberating' Iraqis.
Of course there is a lot more including financial interests
BUT..

I dont sit around and swallow everything someone says like "Cheney wants Oil for his buddies"
GIVE ME A BREAK!

How stupid is it to just mindlessly accept THAT story either?!
Im really just gonna believe that Bush instructed Americans to viciously torture and Behead other Americans because his Multi-Millionaire friend wants another 10 Million dollars in his Multi-Millionaires Gold buddy's bank acount?

GET REAL!

At least stop and QUESTION THAT STORY too!

Where is the dedicated 'questioning' of the Dick Cheney / Haliburton rumours?
Are you willing to accept that media people are lying and creating a whole pro-american cover-up
BUT
You will just gladly gobble down a report that Cheneys friends want Americans slaughtered for some more Oil money?

Lets get our acts together people... YES.. question the 'official whitehouse' version
BUT ALSO QUESTION the 'Kerry' official story.
Question Al Jazeera
Question the so-called 'proof' you found on ONE website written by ONE anonymous writer with a 15.99 a month Domain name!!

 

<I>I dont sit around and swallow everything someone says like "Cheney wants Oil for his buddies" GIVE ME A BREAK! How stupid is it to just mindlessly accept THAT story either?!</I>

That Cheney is personally profiting from the war isn't disputed at all- it's simply fact. It's in his financial disclosure statements. It's all public information, and has been documented meticulously. The money isn't so much in oil as it is in building, maintaining, and militarily defending facilities for the processing and transportation of oil. When he returns to the helm of Halliburton after we throw the assholes out in November, his pay will soar once again.

They do dream that Iraq might develop quickly. An entrepreneur, if things work out, can easily turn every million they have into a billion. Everyone is out for a buck, but the people looking at billions will turn their backs on situations that would horrify you and me.

<I>Im really just gonna believe that Bush instructed Americans to viciously torture and Behead other Americans because his Multi-Millionaire friend wants another 10 Million dollars in his Multi-Millionaires Gold buddy's bank acount?</I>

I wouldn't doubt it at ALL. Not after being wrong on EVERY damn thing I said in defense of the Bush Admin. Maybe you wouldn't do something like that for a mere ten million. But some people are not so honest, especially with more than a hundred billion- not million- being spent on this operation (78 billion plus 87 billion plus 25 billion so far). With hundreds of billions at stake (this isn't even counting investment opportunities, oil processing opportunities, etc., but government contracts alone), history shows that people do extreme things, with no more instruction than a wink, a nod, or a smile.

Given the extreme powers Bush as asked for (Padilla case, for instance), you cannot think of him as just another power-hungry corrupt politician. He's a power-hungry monster on a scale that we've not seen in the USA since at least the days of slavery (Repugnicans have even introduced legislation that would permit them to over-ride the Constitutional prohibition of slavery and EVERY other provision in the entire Constitution- text at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.3920:/ And yes, of course it's illegal- what they've demanded is the overthrow of our constitutional form of government... but Republicans have lost EVERY shred of decency they ever had.

I agree that we should doubt sources, it's a good habit. A year ago I defended some Republican positions, and ridiculed some of the criticism of the president. But so far, nearly every "wacko conspiracy theory" has turned out to be true. The Bushmen have zero- I repeat, ZERO credibility. Other sources we should doubt also, but accepting ANY claims from the Bushmen has proven to be folly.


O
|\ _o
| / \\
Bush Stands Firmly Behind America

 

Dang it, I keep forgetting this board uses bbsomething and not html, blah. Sorry for the clutter I should go fix it but I'm suffering sleep deprivation and am going to go sleeeep.

 

SunLion is right that these people are personally profiting from the war in Iraq. I do think it's naive to suggest that that was the reason for going to war in the first place though - I'm not sure that's SunLion's point, anyway. The agenda is far more heavily influenced by the need for energy security - obtaining easy and cheap access to the untapped reserves in Iraq so that the American economy and oil-fed way of life can continue for a little longer. The US agenda in Eurasia is certainly not driven by humanitarian concerns - only a fool would think so - but by a combination of military and economic factors which will ensure the USA's future global dominance politically, economically, militarily and in terms of the earth's natural resources.

Simply put: imperialism.

 

because no one actually follows the teachings of Christianity.

they never have.

Jesus and God in the New Testement(the book of the the christians so no quoting the Torah please) made it very clear that war and violence and persecution were wrong.

The Christians and others of the orgainized faith have been hellbent(hahaha) since the dawn of their existance to infringe their interpretive faith on everyone else...especially by means of violence.

Jesus said not to kill your fellow man....but legions of Christians marched to foreign soil and destroyed and killed and forced convertion during the Crusades and other empiric quests.


But in no way though, is this behavior pattened and cornered by the Christians.

Tribes and nations have been killing each other off over religion since the dawn of the first religion.


Christianity as a writing is peaceful but it is not practiced peacefully.

Islam and Judeism claim to be peaceful but their scripture does not support peaceful ways talking about wars and stonings and taking neighbors as slaves.

out of the 3 main religions....Judeism has proven to be the most peaceful when practiced.(note I said out of the 3 main religions...not ALL religions..I think Jainism and Buddhism has that market cornered)

Christians and Muslims have been killing each other and invading each other since year 1 AD...the Jews were often caught in the middle.


and please dont bring up Israel. That situation is political not religious. It might be religious for some people but it's political none-the-less.

there are many Israeli citizens who are Christian. Dont forget that Israel IS the HOLY LAND for Christians and Catholics as well as the Jews and has some religious value to the Muslims though not to be compared to Mecca.


Christianity like most religious faiths of the mainstream are hardly practiced as preached.

I dont think humans are capable of following the scripture of the New Testement to the T.

Even Buddhism and Jainism say that a bit of violence is ok if it's in self-defense.

some of the greatest martial arts were created by monks of these faiths.

where-as Jesus said..if you get attacked...take it because you are being the better person and the attacker will get his punishment on Judgement day.

 

You are kidding me right??


first off.AND I'M GONNA SHOUT BECAUSE YOU DID!

YOU SHOULD KNOW BY NOW THAT I'M NOT CONSERVATIVE!!! BUT THANKS FOR THE ACCUSATION!

I'M NOT A FUCKING REPUBLIDICK NOR AM I A DAMNOCRAT.I'M JUST NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO BUY ANY LEFTIST OR RIGHTIST CRAP WITHOUT DOING MY OWN RESEARCH.

SO AGAIN THANKS FOR THAT ACCUSATION AND GENERALIZATION.

HAS ANYONE HERE EVER HEARD ME PREACH MY LOVE FOR BUSH????

FUCKING NO!! BECAUSE THERE IS NO LOVE FOR BUSH HERE IN OTTERLAND!
SO QUIT IT WITH THE ACCUSATIONS THAT I LOVE BUSH.


AGAIN I ASK YOU SKIP.....SINCE YOU SEEM TO BE SOME SORT OF TELEPATHIC GENIUS WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT IRAQ AND THE REST OF US ARE JUST MORONS.....


HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THESE PRISONERS WERE MEN JUST DEFENDING THEIR COUNTRY???

DID YOU ASK THEM AND TAKE THEIR ANSWER AT FACE VALUE???

Why cant you just answer the question? you made a statement and I asked a question regarding your statement. According to rules of FREE SPEECH...i am within my rights and not breaking rules to answer a question or two.


EVERYONE ELSE FUCKING UNDERSTOOD AND KNEW EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING BUT INSTEAD OF YOU ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS WITH LOGICAL AND NON-INSULTING ANSWERS....YOU THREATEN ME AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO QUESTIONS YOUR ALMIGHTY AUTHORITY WITH BANNING.



Is this the future of Hipforums now? after 3 years of posting....getting banned because of your PMS Skip??

remember what happened the last time you did this?? ALOT of members left because your idea of free speech only includes speech that supports your idealogy and bending your own rules to ban whomever questioned you.

So in one retarded post...Skip has accused me of

1.wanting a million(or was it billion?) Muslims dead. which I did not say anywhere in my post.

2.being conservative....which is retarded because I'm Pro-gay,Pro-choice,Pro-environment,an animal welfarist,and anti-war.THE LAST TIME I CHECKED, CONSERVATIVES WOULD BURN ME AT THE STAKE FOR THESE BELIEFS.

3. being a republican....which is laughable because I'm a registered Independent and would never vote republican.

4.Supporting Bush. Which is also laughable because I spew Anti-Bush rhetoric on a daily basis. Yeah....I love Bush



I obviously touched a nerve with you.Dont like being called out do you? Dont like having your views questioned?

I take heat everyday for my views.I know that if I post on public forum..my views are gonna get questioned. my knowlege is gonna get questioned.

And I take the heat because that's what you do. that's life. here in the real world...not everyone is gonna agree.


but I guess you feel as though NO ONE should be allowed to question you.

which may be the reason why you run a website where you can just ban people for whatever reason.you are like God here.

Well God....I'm not a sheep...I'm a goat. So are hundreds of your other Hipforums members.

I guess you should just ban us all then.

I was impressed by how big it was of you to grant amnesty to those you banned from old forums.

But I let my impressed-vision blind me to the fact that you will never change. You granted amnesty so that you could have fun banning again...nothing more.

So go ahead and ban me(after 3 years)...all it will do is prove to everyone else here how small you actually are and how little you know about the people who visit your site on a daily basis.

 

Y'all chill out now. When I read this from Skip, it made me smile, cuz I know how frustrating this whole Iraq situation is for everyone in here and throughout this country. I think he was just blowing off steam. I feel the same way sometimes, trying to talk with people about the war -- I just want to slap them upside the head sometimes. Otter and Skip, you both have really good points, so you both just kiss and make up now before this gets too ugly.

 

Anyone hear of "TheDailyFarce"?

From May 6th.
"Further, to protect the Iraqi prisoners from any future abuses; any digital cameras, camcorders, or cell phones with cameras are strictly prohibited anywhere in any military compound in Iraq."
http://www.thedailyfarce.com/world.cfm?story=2004%5C05%5Cworld_moreabusepictures_05200400006

May 23rd (seventeen days later) This story breaks?
"Digital cameras, camcorders and cellphones with cameras have been prohibited in military compounds in Iraq," it said, adding that a "total ban throughout the US military" is in the works

Oh well, not many of the people who read this thread will read it again and know it was a joke...
As usual...

 

I've always liked otters replies even though I cant say I always agree with them. Most of the time I see where she is coming from, sometimes I think shes flat out wrong too... and its sad that posts have to get into shouting matches between people. I dont think banning otter wouldnt help much... she has been going here for a while, man. You get used to seeing the same people and stuff... if conservatives are pissing you off, ban those new ones that came out of absolutely nowhere, with the repeticious sheeplike rhetorich and bushit.. not otter man.

Its up to you though just throwing in my opinion.

Peace & Love,
Mui.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1114150.htm

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=299750

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/23/1085250873479.html?from=top5

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040523/tc_afp/iraq_britain_us_rumsfeld_040523111731

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040523-050824-2805r.htm


Johnny,

These links are from reputable news sources, I don't think they have the same sources as "The Daily Farce"

Of course, "reputable" news sources aren't always accurate, but thay aren't going to print stories from a fake news humor site.