How can you call the war on Afghanistan a preemptive war? The puppet government of Afghanistan supported the terrorist headquarters that so much killing in our homeland. It was the terrorist headquartered in Afghanistan that declared preemptive war on America. I continue to think this mess in the Near East should end like WWII with some large radiating explosions to get the worlds attention! You people who feel sorry for those who choose to kill us should move to their countries. Changeyourlatitude
I was just replying to trippymcnugget, who had the hypothetical scenario of Bush being slammed for a pre-emptive war in Afghanistan to supposedly prevent 9-11. And don't start with that "America - Love it or leave it!" rant. I don't condone at all what the al-Qaeda terrorists have done. But it's ignorant not to try to understand the underlying causes of fundamentalist terrorism and why we are so reviled in the Middle East, and to dismiss any viewpoint but our own.
Sorry! "But it's ignorant not to try to understand the underlying causes of fundamentalist terrorism and why we are so reviled in the Middle East" You start the list, I can't think of any reasoning for the way they would change the world. Nor can I understand how America is keeping them from living in "their part of the world" the way they like it. They want drastic changes in which they rule the world in 13th century mentality. I try to understand but simply can't. Bug spray for dog dick gnats. Changeyourlatitude
Here's my rough list, off the top of my head... it's more what drives the prevalent Arab mentality rather than the terrorists themselves. The terrorists like to use these reasons to manipulate their supporters: - The Arabs are bitter over having been dominated by the West as "protectorates" up until the last 50 years, and they fear their Arab identity is succumbing to what they see as Western decadence. A bit of an inferiority complex, maybe. - The Arabs hate the fact the West (in general us) has military bases on Muslim turf. - Number one reason: the existence of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians... and also of course the recent mess in Iraq. Overall, Islamic terrorism is, through their eyes, about revenge. They view the Great Satan as a threat to the Muslim way of life, and sadly quite a few Arabs who feel that the West is a threat support them. Given our considerable power, they think the only way to fight us and not get squashed is through terrorism. I don't agree with these views but I can kinda see where all the anger is dredged up from. And the power of the media shows in how it can sway Arab opinion this way. Several years ago (I was maybe eleven) I lived for almost a year in Riyadh because my dad had an ex-pat professor gig there. Man, you don't often see a more slanted press than what they've got in Saudi Arabia... and that was when our relations were relatively chummy.
- The Arabs are bitter over having been dominated by the West as "protectorates" up until the last 50 years, and they fear their Arab identity is succumbing to what they see as Western decadence. A bit of an inferiority complex, maybe. Kind of like the Quakers in Pennsylvania. Frozen in time and deep religious belief, but the Quakers don’t try to change the world to all be like Quakers. They indoctrinate “their community” to remain unchanged by the evils of the modern world. The Arabs used to be “large and in charge” and it didn’t work since they were stuck in time like the Quakers. Arab and Quaker is a good analogy. - The Arabs hate the fact the West (in general us) has military bases on Muslim turf. - Number one reason: the existence of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians... and also of course the recent mess in Iraq. Let’s just say it out loud; it’s because of the Palestinians and the Jewish State. When the Arabs were a “large and in charge” world power they expelled the Jews from their rightful homeland. Check history and you will learn the Jews were where they are now millenniums before they were expelled. The UN put them back in their rightful home. About the US Bases…the US doesn’t set up basis without invitation and usually pay an expensive lease for a patch of hell on earth. The Arabs should be mad at the Arabs if the Arabs do the lease. The problem is Israel. Overall, Islamic terrorism is, through their eyes, about revenge. They view the Great Satan as a threat to the Muslim way of life, and sadly quite a few Arabs who feel that the West is a threat support them. Given our considerable power, they think the only way to fight us and not get squashed is through terrorism. This is the contradiction of correct thinking. Let’s say the Quakers get pissed because some of the young kids start to want to buy cars, movies or something evil like that. This would be a situation where the elders can’t control the youth. The Quakers should mobilize to destroy the US and Europe so they can live in the Stone Age? They correct the problem within the community by teachings of their belief. The concept of the Quakers consideration of conquering the modern world wouldn’t come in a sane societies mind regardless of the size of the community. Quakers land would have to be condemned by the government before they would allow a modern facility be installed on it for the youth to marvel at. Now the majority of Arabs are enjoying modern toys, religion isn’t as strict as the Quakers. It is a minority of flawed individuals, terrorist, which want to revert back to the 13th century that want to change the world. How do they do this in a society full of modern trinkets? Brainwashing! Your family and you lived there for a while, you should be telling me this. Saudi Arabia royal family and the upper class are decadent and don’t bother running the courts or government, they leave it to the church. The clergy not a judge and jury dole out punishment. So the leaning of the church determines the masses view of the world. The media compounds the ridiculousness of this situation. A comparison would be the African Americans in Cincinnati; all white people are evil to the community. Even if they come as police when called because a black member of the community is killing someone if a white person makes the arrest he is a bigot. Brainwashed! Do you remember how many foreigners were there in comparison to America? Foreigners do the work; the Saudis just spend oil money and wallow in Cincinnati brainwashing to make them feel like a proud race. So the solution is to Kill the free modern world, all JEWS or Kill all Islamic Fundamentalist and wipe out the brainwashing media with truth. It will take decades or a nuclear bomb. Changeyourlatitude
I know all about the decadent, spoiled Saudis, it's the staple of the Gulf States. Kuwait is probably the worst, only a third of its population are citizens with the rest as imported labor. The Saudi royal family is caught between the pressures of the West and the fanatical Islamic Wahabi sect, which uses the House of Saud as the catalyst for its power (King Fahd's official, p.c. title is "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques"). The Sand Kingdom is the world's most glaring anachronism, and they're headed for hard times when oil stops being profitable. So yea, I haven't overlooked all that stuff. On Israel, it's a very tangly mess if you want to work out who's got the "right" to be there. Personally I don't think the Palestinians or the Israelis are really in the right, the only real solution to the problem (which won't happen) is for the two peoples to peacefully coexist. The Israelis have their millennia old claim to Palestine, but you cannot overlook the fact that Arabs have also lived their for many generations. To give a parallel, the Native Americans have been the original inhabitants of North America before the Europeans drove them back and took their land. Should we (and more realistically could we) all move out and give their land back? So it's not such a clear cut matter of birthright. So there I can empathize with the Arab point of view, the Palestinians got shafted in 1948. Now I don't support the violent militants who attack Israel, but neither do I support Israeli policy. Both sides are screwed up. The land of Israel/Palestine should just sink into the Mediterranean so no one can fight over it anymore.
Most excellent well thought out response! But, until the earthquake we have the three solutions dangling in our faces. Changeyourlatitude
Democrats calling for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's resignation invoke the principle of ministerial responsibility: A cabinet secretary must take ultimate responsibility for what happens on his watch. Interesting idea. Where was it in 1993, when Attorney General Janet Reno ordered the attack on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Tex., that ended in the deaths of 76 people? Reno went to Capitol Hill and said, "It was my decision, and I take responsibility." This was met with approving swoons and applause. Was she made to resign? No. And remember: This was over an action that did not just happen on her watch but that she ordered - an action that resulted in the deaths of, among others, more than 20 children. Given the fact that when they were in power, Democrats had little use for the notion of ministerial responsibility, their sudden discovery of it over Abu Ghraib suggests this has little to do with principle. It's about politics. The calls for Rumsfeld's resignation remotely appear to be anything other than partisan bickering to me.
Boo-Lucifer---Anyone? What about the three alternatives I addressed in my last post. AM I WRONG and what is your choice? Changeyourlatitude
Heh I'm sorry... your three "solutions" are to destroy the "free modern world," all the Jews, or all the Islamists, right? Just to be sure before I say anything more.
I wrote, "So the solution is to Kill the free modern world, all JEWS or Kill all Islamic Fundamentalist and wipe out the brainwashing media with truth. It will take decades or a nuclear bomb." You answered in conclusion, “The land of Israel/Palestine should just sink into the Mediterranean so no one can fight over it anymore.” I haven’t heard an earthquake notice so what should the solution be? Or do you have other solutions? You said a lot, but nothing to refute the choices except about the sinking into the sea. Changeyourlatitude
I think such sweeping solutions as "killing" the great free modern world or the entire Jewish race or the entire sect of Islamic fundamentalists are about as realistic as (if not less) than my solution of Israel being swallowed by the waves. You can't really "kill" any of those three huge groups, or get anywhere close to that, unless you're Hitler (and that just isn't cool). It simply cannot be done. For these three factions are not just peoples, they are idealogies. It's pretty hard, if not downright impossible, to kill an idealogy. A war of brute force isn't going to do that. Or maybe it can, but not without laying waste to and beating into submission a continent or two. As powerful as we are, we will never do that. The Islamist militants are nasty folks but they sure as hell can't do that. I think that unless you are willing to undergo near-apocalyptic destruction and possibly nuclear war you are not going to win what has essentially been an idealogical war. And if that's what happens I don't know how you can really call the result a victory. The way to ultimately win the conflict, if there is one, is by winning minds over, and that's pretty hard. But its more effective and less gory than all-out global war. Bush possibly had some well-meaning in his prophecy of an Iraqi democracy spreading freedom in the Middle East, but it is a flawed prophecy. It does not groove right with the mindset of the average Arab, and that's what counts. The fact we're stuck in Iraq now has made this situation infinitely more difficult, as when we do leave we could risk Iraq becoming a fundamentalist terrorist nest, more than the risk ever was when Saddam was boss. But eventually we're gonna have to get the hell out of there. And when we do, we could try being a bit humble for once and keep a wary distance from the Middle East. We have to let the Arab hatred for us to die down some. And we need to redeem some reputation on the world stage so they will be more willing to listen to us. Avoid pre-emptive warfare, preferably don't do it at all. We'll have to swallow some pride. If we're blatantly attacked again or have blatant evidence of a planned attack, sure, then you've got a reason to rattle your saber maybe go fight a bit, but no more. And no more pre-emptive wars and especially ones based on iffy intelligence. Eventually, when Arab distrust for us is allowed to cool and subside a bit, I think support for fundamentalism will begin to die out. Fundamentalism was dying out in the Middle East before Israel was founded. If we no longer give the fundamentalists something substantial to scream about, the Arabs will eventually shrug off fundamentalism themselves. So naturally this leads us to Israel. I think it obviously will be a long road before that conflict is ever resolved. I think the militant nuts on both sides of that struggle have done a lot of damage to the hopes of any possible resolution in the past decade. It won't be easy, but I think the only hope is for at least one side to ease up a bit, preferably Israel, to halt the killing. Otherwise it will do nothing but escalate more. I think the Israelis need to swallow some of their pride, and realize that their stubborn determination to keep all or the vast majority of Israel-Palestine on the basis of antiquated birthright is not a very enlightened idea. Maybe, maybe the intense hate between the Israelis and Arabs could start to cool if the fighting stops and the Israelis give a significant chunk of their land back to the Palestinians, or else cohabit with them (only if relations become unusually better!). If heads are allowed to cool long enough, I think the militant nutjobs on either side will be sidelined for smarter and less bloody paths, and maybe sometime in the distant future they could finally find some satisfactory compromise. It would take a long time, but it's the only real hope I see for that benighted strip of turf. Hell, if you have all that hope for a successful US-implanted Iraq democracy you can surely grant me leeway on my idealism here. So yea, it's gonna be a looooong century. But I think if something like what I've said above starts to happen, then we'll minimize what further destruction is bound to come and maybe even bring a stop to it someday. I think at any rate it's actually more realistic than your Big Three genocidal solutions. And so I end my long-ass post, whew, hope it wasn't too boring. Damn, this really was long...
You are very intellegent! And a great response to what I asked. I would hope the same but I fear like Israel's attempts in the past which "almost" happened but thrown to the side by an idiot decision could happen in the region. What Israel does in retalliation to it's neighbor will be times ten if another attack happens from the region on the US. I hope the resolve and cool minds take charge to allow Iraq to cool and become peaceful and a concept for other countries, Iran for example to want to be like. I know that is a big wish but the Iranian youth want it all ready. The young people are tired of the Mullas. I hope the prophency isn't the dream of Nostradomas! Changeyourlatitude
Dude Maybe you should hedge your bet. Just a thought, like I said I think you are very smart! So some advice from an old soldier who was drafted while minding his own business, learn a profession which will keep you away from harms way when the draft comes. I recommend Dental hygienist, dentist or dentist assistant. If the draft comes these professions will work to 99% in the US processing draftees to the conflict. You can do your political major later because your life will be assured to be safe. You are smart and I know from experience the best jobs for draftees. Even better than GWB picked! Changeyourlatitude
There is another option...We could realize that "they" are "we" and that we all are "us" There is no division between us. If we kill "them" we're killing ourselves. What is the change that we wish to see in the world right now? Peace? well, that's it for me anyway. I don't want to see anyone die because of the illusion of separation. Gandhi said - Be the change that you wish to see in the world. For us to have world peace, we have to be at peace with ourselves and our brothers )all of them) regardless. Just a crazy alternative to destroying the world. Peace and Love (to everyone)
Hehe, that's sort of what happened to my dad when he was drafted in '69 or '70. He was beginning grad school, and so when he aced the military exams or whatever they deemed he was too bright to waste on the front lines, he was stationed in Korea as a specialist in translation. That what he always tells me, if I'm drafted and if I'm smart enough I won't be sent to the front lines to get mowed down. He ended up staying in Asia for a while afterwards, and married an Asian girl. So I guess I kinda owe my existence to one of America's worst foreign policy decisions. Ah it's too late for me in terms of a safe career, calculus and chemistry killed any passion I had for the maths and sciences. I'm already about to declare for my major in English Writing for Journalism or Creative Non-fiction, so I'll either work for the great media beast or if I'm lucky attempt to follow the careers of Tom Wolfe and H.S. Thompson. Or I'll follow my original dream and poke fun at people with a cartooning career. No teeth picking for me, thanks anyway.
Dude I was in Korea at the same time as your dad. I read, write and speak Korean too. Ask him if he knows what a jump TOC is? The Generals fill them with brains which think fast on their feet! Including clerks! A Jump TOC is a Jump (or rapid relocating along the forward edge of battle) Tactical Operations Center. Tooth pickers never hear a gun fire unless it is on the range. Changeyourlatitude
I'm both (an Omnivore). I enjoy some meat and veggies/fruits. But I do tend, nowadays lately, to eat more veggies and fruits. And I try to just eat more fish and chicken than beef or pork these days.
