Republicans are ruining American education

Discussion in 'Politics' started by unfocusedanakin, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. I'minmyunderwear

    I'minmyunderwear voice of sexy

    i dunno, you quoted me and posted a bunch of graphs that implied the opposite of what i was saying, with no explanation. i really wasn't sure exactly what you were getting at so i just answered the best i could based on what was posted. *shrugs*
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    I should have said that the median skews the data less than the mean average. Median should be used when comparing salaries.

    Here is a better source than charts. It's from the Economic Policy Institute and seems pretty complete, I haven't read every word.
    It does factor in stuff like benefits.
  3. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    Plumbing is a profession yet you didn't include them. My complaint isn't that you compared teachers to professions. My problem is you compared teachers to professions that are largely recognized as high end and requires years of degrees and internships to obtain and the profesion itself is very demanding.
  4. NotMyRealName

    NotMyRealName Members

    That's because the liberals think they are lower class humans that only understand one thing, plumbing. They don't have a clue of the big picture like them edumicated ones do
  5. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Yeah, I think the general thinking was that when teachers invest years in degrees and internships to enter a profession, they should be treated as professionals and make more than plumbers. But as a matter of fact, some plumbers make more. In fact I know a plumber who used to be a college professor--a recognized authority in his field. And he gave it up for a more lucrative occupation. Keep in mind, the real issue is the quality of education in this country. You get what you pay for.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  6. NotMyRealName

    NotMyRealName Members

    A clerk at a liquor store makes more than a teacher. Considering the fact that the clerk has no student debt to pay off, it's all a matter of how you define smarter.
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Well you can quibble about the term profession.
    Plumbing is usually considered a trade, many times with a period of apprenticeship if you wish to join a union.

    A profession usually is a term confined to those jobs that require a higher level of education, a code of ethics, and self regulating bodies across the entire body of members.

    For example to be a certified teacher usually requires six months of internship within five years of college and continuing education to retain licensing. The profession is expected and required by law to conform to certain ethical and moral standards, and is regulated both by itself and the government.
    In PA teachers must pass three background checks including Federal, be fingerprinted, and maintain a valid license.
    Comparing the teaching profession to other high paying professions is the point isn't it? Should we just compare it only to professions that pay less, if you can name any?
    Further you are insinuating that teaching is not a demanding profession, at least not as demanding as plumbing? Within the first five years of teaching 40% to 50 % of those employed will leave the profession.

    Anyone can be a plumber, there is no national standard for knowledge, skills, ethics, etc.
  8. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

    Smart is investing in our education system so we do not become a nation of imbeciles (oops is it too late)

    I dont know why anyone would be opposed to that. Even if you dont have kids, todays kids will be the ones running the world when we're all too old and feeble to do it. It is in the best interest of all of us to make sure we are creating a well educated populace
  9. NotMyRealName

    NotMyRealName Members

    We did a lot better when we taught our kids to have a good work ethic as a mechanic, plumber, electrician etc., than we have convincing them that being a teacher or lawyer was a better path for them.

    We de-emphasized labor jobs, trade jobs, skilled trades, in favor of cerebral professions. Man are we paying the price now. Everyone sits around convincing each other who's smarter and we not enough doing the actual things that need to be done to actually get us going again.

    Smart is placing education emphasis on what we need to have here. The last thing we need is more people graduating with the idea that they are now smarter than a plumber or electrician or etc. and therefore don't need to do any work they feel better than needing.

    Cars are complex. To be a good mechanic today is way harder than it used to be. If I have a degree in basket weaving, that mechanic is far smarter than me in their choices.
  10. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    It was the first thing that came my mind on short notice. If by profession, something that requires specific training, certification, and schooling, then plumbing would be cosidered as such but I'd go with trade.
    Well yes if the profession being compared to is relatively the same. A brain surgeon and a teacher are not the same. Plain and simple. The expertise and stress of the two jobs are on two different levels. A teacher can get away with an error or two that isn't detrimental. However if a doctor makes an error, he risks someone else's life and/or well being. So I'm fine if you want to prove your point by comparing a teacher's salary to another profession, just keep it in perspective.

    No. We should compare professions that are at the same level as teacher as far as requirements and how demanding the job is. BTW, I can name a profession that pays less. I just did it in fact. First responders get paid on average less than teachers. In fact in many cases, you're volunteering to do the same job as a full time responder. I can personally attest to that as I was an auxiliary member for my local sheriff's office. Except for the badge, I wore the same uniform as a full time deputy and I had similar duties. My city department has a part time unit who has the exact same powers and duties as a full time officer yet they also volunteer. All this to say that while I believe that first responders should be paid more as they risk their lives to save others, I will not say that they should be on the same level as an engineer or doctor.

    Again, no. I'm saying that being a teacher isn't as demanding as being a doctor.

    You're right. It was a bad example. However the premise of the argument still stands. Comparing a teacher to a doctor is no comparison at all.
  11. NotMyRealName

    NotMyRealName Members

    My brother was a healthcare professional. He was a radiogy technician.

    My g/f is a medical professional. She is a general practice MD.

    One is not like the other.

    Just don't tell my brother. He thinks they are.
  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    One of the things a good education should do is teach the kids how to think straight--to distinguish relevant from irrelevant arguments. You show a lack of that skill.
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Again to be a professional one has to meet certain requirements.

    There is no question that different professions require different skill sets and have different levels of stress.
    That doesn't mean one is necessarily more valuable than another.
    My father in law was a surgeon, my wife worked for 34 years in the healthcare field as a tech/I.V. coordinator, I know what kind of stress and responsibilities they have.

    However teaching is a unique field. Just consider how doctors get to be doctors. They go to school and are taught by...teachers of medicine.
    There are many different levels of teaching. Some are very stressful, some are very relaxed and rewarding. Some involve very small children, some adults. Some very intelligent students, some handicapped or very belligerent.

    If you want I can cite examples.

    I retired a year early after 34 years as I got tired of the constant adrenaline rush I experienced every day.

    Here are some excerpts from a very good paper. Whatever anyone thinks on this subject, this is very enlightening.
  14. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    Nor did I said as much. I said the expertise and job stress of both professions are on separate levels. The requirements and stress is more with doctors than teachers.

    Which brings up another point. Why not compare teachers of medicine to doctors for how much each is paid? By your own admission, teachers come in many levels and fields of study. A teacher of medicine has more expertise than a kindergarten teacher. Your chart lumps all teachers into one catagory.

    So compare the teachers with the highest levels to professions like doctors amd engineers. That way they are at least relatable.
    Nearly all of that can be atributed to the stress of being a police officer.
  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    I really don't understand what your problem with comparing the salaries of different professions is.
    You claim doctors experience more stress, maybe, maybe not, it depends on the circumstances.
    Then you complain because there are different types of teachers disregarding the fact that there are different types of medical doctors.
    Yes different teachers have different job experiences and yes, different medical doctors also have different job experiences.
    Next you claim that a medical doctor has more expertise than a kindergarten teacher. Both require different skill sets, demeanor, and yes expertise. Are you saying all medical doctors can be better than any kindergarten teacher when it comes to teaching preschoolers?

    For some reason you seem to feel that teachers are overpaid and any comparison as far as wages earned with any other profession or job is in err someway.
    Fine, give teachers low wages, as their job is not really on a par with doctors, police, plumbers, and any other means of garnering an income is. I really don't care, I've retired.
  16. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    I care. I have school age kids!
  17. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    As I said, my problem isn't with you comparing teachers to different professions that are of similar likeness. My problem is you comparing teachers to doctors. That'll be like me comparing a police officer to a doctor. While I have high regards for our first responders and for a short while I was one of them and currently seeking employmemt as a full time officer, It would be silly of me to place a police officer on the same level as a doctor.

    The lowest level of doctor still has far more requirements than your average teacher or even professor.

    No. I'm saying that the requirements to become a doctor is different and more difficult than becoming a teacher.
    I don't feel that. By all means, pay teachers at least the amount it takes to have a decent living. What I object to is paying teachers the same amount as doctors.

    That's not what I said other than not paying teachers on the same level as doctors.
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    I hadn't realized I ever said teachers should be paid the same as doctors.
    I understand your view.
    The Teaching profession is below the medical profession, especially doctors. More in line with the plumbing trade.
    We should never compare a teacher to a doctor.
  19. Maccabee

    Maccabee Luke 22:35-38

    As I said earlier, the plumbing trade was a bad example that I thought of in short notice. I will say that teachers aren't on the same level as doctors.
  20. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

    Plumbing is a skill that be can taught on site. It's not the same thing as a real college education that teachers need. It has a place in society but I don't trust a plumber to know anything but pipes.

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