Religion is US schools

The original point of this post was to teach religion in school because it teaches morals, right? The problem is that morals are very subjective, and are not the same for everyone...

If a kid was to be taught a fundamentalist christanity religion in school, to install some 'morals' in him, then that kid is going to come away thinking that it's OK to abuse women, and attack homosexuals, etc - that's not the sort of morals I want a kid to learn.

So how about this, rather than teaching a kid 'religion' to install some morals in them, why not teach them The Law, and explain to them what happens if they break the law.

I can assure you that this is going to be FAR more effective as keeping kids in line, and stop them from misbehaving, then telling them that some 'god' will send them to hell....

there - problem solved.

 

That's incorect..

Atheists don't believe in god - it's not a case of being able to prove or disprove anything, it's a belief.

You're talking about agnostics - agnostics are the ones who admit they don't know if there is a god or not, and believe that no one will ever know.

it might not sound like much of a diffrence, but let me tell you, a lot of atheists get very upset when religous people tell them "you can't be athiests, you have to be agnostic" - that would be like me telling you that you can't be christian, you must be jewish. - not because it's offensive in itself being agnostic, but because it's not who they are.

 

maybe you should do a little research about evolution. Evolution is caused by a mutation of the dna & genes of a species which causes a significance difference between the original species & the new ones. schools dont preach atheism btw. they dont promote any religion. sometimes people confuse that with atheism.

peace & love

 

Being an athiest means one thing, and one thing only - not believing in god... That's the one thing that join athiests togther - nothing more - not all athiests believe in evolution, some just don't care how the world started, all they know is that they are here, and that's good enough for them...

Schools do not teach ateistm, if they did, they would be telling people that god doesn't exist, they don't do they - they remain silent on the subject...

 

you do realize that the law isn't as cut and dried as would seem. that's why people study it for years and years to become lawyers. what interpretation of the law is appropriate to high school students, and will teaching a certain interpretation as "The Law", is that going to intimidate to not exercise their freedom of speech in dissent of laws or policies they feel are unjust?

that to me sounds too much like an endorsement of programs like dare. while i think that children should be taught the basics of what the law says about certain activities, often times people strongly disagree as to whether or not the law is just. children should be taught the basics of law, but be allowed to exercise their own judgement and freedom of speech, and yes, morals, in understanding that law. otherwise, it could imtimidate studensts. i still say teaching morals or "right" and "wrong" is the job of parents, and none of the school's (government's) damn business.

epiphany, nothing personal, but you are displaying a lot of (probably spoon-fed) ignorance regarding evolution and the scientific method. please educate yourself. for crying out loud, i've known the difference between a hypothesis, theory, and law since 7th grade biology. so offense, but to people who are really familiar with the scientific method rather than just repeating what their pastor frothed about at the pulpit some sunday, saying "it's just a theory" sounds really dumb.

 

There's no need for religion in schools. The excuse of teahing morality is bull. It's human nature and is a waste of time to teach. Think about it...if it wasn't human nature to be moral, morality wouldn't exist. Morality eventually comes around to everyone, whether they're living in some secluded cave, or in a huge city. Theres no need for religions to put their own twist on morality.

About evolution, it's not a threory, it's a possibility, an extremely strong possibility. Once a theory is backed up by the least bit of proof, it becomes a possibility, and no longer a theory. Also, the catholic curch has even accepted evolution. However, to still back up the beleif of creation, man wasn't created until God gave him/her/it a soul.

I'm in a catholic school, and it sucks. Every religion class is total brainwashing. That's all religion will ever be, brainwashing, and kids get enough of brainwashing from the media, they don't need it in school too.

About the schools teaching atheism: They don't touch upon the subject of God, gods, and other bullshit at all. If anything, thats closest to teaching agnostic beleifs.

 

Lets sign a petition to put god back in school? hmm... lets think about this one for 2 seconds. Once we get our sigatures it can be put to a vote right? even though separation of church/state is the pillar of our constitution, if it were put to a vote it would lose out, overwelmingly. human rights were put up for a vote already and it happened(gay marrage). So once we have god back in the ciriculum what can we expect? I geuss i would be instantly scewed/silenced to to my doubts about god, but what about all the evolution haters? wouldnt this be a victory? Here's one potential scene, so you tell me:

Loudspeaker: "attention, students and staff, since were now able, and the government is no longer oppressive, were gonna open today with a little prayer! remember, if you are a satanist brainwashed gay science type, you dont have to participate! Everybody ready?"

Christian majority: "Yay! our founding father Jesus won!"

Others: "oh, fuck us."

Loudspeaker:" ok, every body bow down in the direction of Mecca..."

Christian majority: "oh, fuck us!"

anyway, before you sign that petition, make sure those in charge agree with you on every aspect of faith. we dont want any of those wussy "sprinkle babtisers" teaching our young uns...

Post script
oh and to clear up the general public's misunderstanding once and for all, evolution is a theory, and a theory is backed up by scientific facts. once a theory is proven, its still a theory. look up "theory" and "law" in your textbook if you dont beleive me. the is no reputable evidence for creationism, so lets not act like it. just ignore science like you have to to make genisis add up. If its part of your religion to believe in the whole six day thing, do so. Its what america is all about. but im not gonna. quit trying to make me.

 

My Pastor has never spoken on the topic of evolution. I have done my own research on the subject.

Theory - a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action.

Notice the word, "belief", in that statement. It is funny how Christian's views are persecuted because they have belief, yet, the very word theory means belief. Amusing really.....


The only dumb thing here is trying educating children on a subject that lacks full proof. In Personality psychology, we discuss a majority of theories. However, we are first made aware that they are not the absolute truth considering the fact that not all research is conclusive. When you have inconclusive research, or more matter of factly, in the case of the big bang theory, an idea that has some provided facts, but no evidence for it's origin, does not make it the almighty truth. When scientists discover where the intial particles came from that created these, "singularities", that caused the expansion we now know as earth, then no longer will their big bang theory be a theory. However, until it can be proven, then all your children are being taught is partial truth. Sadly, A scientific theory stands until proven wrong -- it is never proven correct. If something is never proven correct, then incorperating it into a basic form of education is pretty futile. Explaining the facts that have been provided is fine, as long as children are made aware of the fact that it is not the undisputed truth.


"The Big Bang Model is a broadly accepted theory for the origin and evolution of our universe." - They themselves refer to it as a scientific theory.

As far as my, "spoon fed ignorance", I offer up the same statement I gave World of Dan. When you know my exact views on creation, then you can comment on them. Until then, whatever you believe you know about my views is purely specculation. I have not discussed where I stand on the board.

It's really very sad the kind of people whom most of you have met, claiming the name of God but being anything except Christian. I do not attack homosexuals (I have homosexual/bisexual friends), and if you knew anything about me, you would know about my on going crusade against abuse in any form.

 

Here's the thing: the word "theory," according to Merriam-Webster, has a number of definitions. The one that would be applicable to evolution would be this:

5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>

The evolutionary theory is backed up by tons and tons of evidence. Actually, seeing as evolution is merely change over time, there is no way for it not to occur. The basis is that species that are better fit to their environment survive longer and reproduce more, thereby tossing the gene pool in their favor. I.E. - In england, before the industrial revolution, there was a moth that had two "races." One was light and blended well with the lichens and mosses that covered the trees, and the other was dark, and didn't blend in as well, and therefore wasn't as prevalent. After the industrial revolution, the lichens started dying from pollution, the dark moth blended in better, and it also became much more populous than the light moth. That dark moth wasn't present since the beginning of time. It came into existence when a parent moth had a gene mutation that caused its color to be dark. Hence not only genetic drift, but also speciation.

Here's a fact: Science, by nature, cannot be proven true. Any of it. Scientists' conclusions can only be supported by results from experimentation and observation. Science is a self-correcting field. That means that if there were evidence against a theory, we would no longer accept that theory as true. Many theories arise from speculation on observation, and are promptly shown to be inaccurate. That has happened many many times. Atoms have been shown not to be solid balls, as was once thought. Objects of different weights do not fall at different speeds, as was once thought. But you can prove these theories wrong. Evolution has been studied for more than a century, and some of it's earlier theories (a muscular father will have muscular kids) have been discarded. But after a century of study, it has held up.

You can falsify a religious belief like creation. If I ask for your explanation of fossils, you can just say that God made them to mess with you, or whatever. He's God, right? So he can do anything, and there's no way we can say he can't, because he is a belief, a metaphysical entity. Therefore, the entire idea of creation, intelligent design, or even "assisted evolution" falls entirely outside the realm of science. You cannot test for God in a laboratory.

What is taught in school is completely factual, logical, reasonable, testable, and only in the case of language (foreign or not) and arts, contestable without research.

For these reasons, creationism and intelligent design and your entire set of morals should be excluded from the classroom for as long as this country exists, unless you want dining etiquette or something.

 

I am speaking more specifically about Big Bang than the process of evolution, though it still ties into evolution.

 

Ephphany - you agree that god can neither be proven nor disproven, right? People have been trying to do both for thousands of years, and we're still no closer to an answer either way...

Now you've got a problem with the big bang theory - it can't be proven, and for the most part it's still a mystery to us - so you believe that maybe god had something to do with the start of the universe... now are you not simply replacing one mystery with another?

There is a term for this, 'someone's razor' or something like that, it's the (proven) idea that if you don't know how something happened, the most simplest explination is probally true... so lets look at the start of the universe:

On one side, people are saying that the unverse just burst into life - the big bang theory - on the other hand, other people are saying that god made the universe, or at least started off the process...

the problem with the god idea is that it's too complicated - with the big bang, it just happened - simple as that... with yuor idea, god would have needed to have been made first, then he would have needed to made the universe..

There is no proof of god, so to say "well, it must have been god that started it all off", just because there is no proof that god isn't real, from a scientific point of view, not good enough - there is not even the slightest shred of evidence to suggest that god started the world, and so science is happy, until they discover otherwise, to say that the universe just started..

(do you understand what I mean, i'm not sure i've explained it correctly).

 

I understand the point you are trying to convey.

If someone had to create God, then someone would have had to create the creation that created God and so on and so forth. It would be a never ending cycle.

My point is that if it is going to be taught it schools, the facts should be presented in a way that children understand that we only have partial information and nothing has been set in stone.

Yes, God is too complicated for the world. However, that changes when one develops a relationship with him.

People tend to assume that because I am a Christian that I have blind faith. This is simply not true. Science's idea that the world just created itself is amusing. Granted, there was a process and I am not disputing that fact, but for people of logic to claim that it, "just happend", makes me laugh. They will never find the answer.

 

so tell me - you've got a personal relationship with god - where did god come from? I mean, if you're going to live your life by someone's rules, then surely you'd want to know everything you can about that person?

 

If I even began to try and explain this to you, you, as most people, would probably find it laughable at best, much in the same way that I find people's belief in the scientific theory that the world, "just created itself", is laughable. So either way, we are both going to end up thinking one another's view is pure stupidity.

My math scholar/wiccan boyfriend and I have this same exact discussion nearly twice a month. Half of his nature believes that everything can be solved with equations, the other half is in favor of his wiccan beliefs.

 

The diffrence is that I'm actully interested in finding out what you believe - I'm sure you've seen this: http://theworldofdan.co.uk/god/ - I PMed it to you a couple of days ago - if you wanted to take part, i'd greatly apprechate it, and you never know, it might hlp me understand where you're coming from - because yes, i admit, at the moment i find your ideas laughable...

PS, science is not saying that it 'just happened', science, for the most part admit that they don't know, and at the very best only have theories - just because one tiny part is currently unknown, that does not mean that the whole thing should be ignored... your logic is backwards, if we don't teach our kids what we DO know, just because there is part of it we don't know, how do we ever hope to improve ourselves? for all we know, one of the kids learning about evolution in school today might go on to uncover the secrets of the universe, all because he was inspired to by his education...

Again, as for saying that it 'just happened' - you have to admit that in the lack of any evidence to the contry (i.e. 'god did it'), it's the best answer they can give right now.

(i.e. "We don't know what happened, and there is no evidence that god did it, but what the hell, lets credit it to god anyway")

 

That is why I said this:

 

it is... they teach what's science has discovered, and what scientific theories exist - but moreso than that, they teach HOW these discoveries have been made, and WHY they have the theories...

 

I would like to interrupt this discussion at this late date and point something out.

The problem with teaching in school that "god" is the cause of something is that it simultaneously explains everything and in so doing says nothing. You can take any question whatsoever -- not just the origin of the cosmos and the variety of living creatures -- and any other phenomenon whatsoever --and ask "How did that happen?" and one can always assert "God did it". And what does that tell you? It tells you nothing. It explains nothing. It doesn't tell you how to do anything or accomplish anything. It is not a case of understanding something. It is not practical or useful knowledge. What it represents in fact is the end of enquiry and the end of education and the end of learning and the end of research and understanding and the end of human progress. Because people say "Oh God did it and that's all there is to it and that's all I need to know" and everything stops there. It's a dead end.

Do you see that? Do you understand that?

To take an example, it could be that penicillin really doesn't kill streptococcus. We just think it does. But it does not. What is actually happening is that every time you take penicillin god is actually intervening to kill the streptococcus. The penicillin is entirely circumstantial. It does nothing.

It is SACRILEGE to teach that penicillin kills streptococcus. GOD kills streptococcus. I've heard tell they're going to be putting stickers in the pharmacology books stating that penicillin is unproven. (To not do so would be to discredit and offend god. That's sacrilege.)

And let me say something else. This should interest you Epiphany. It IS possible that penicillin never ever killed a single streptococcus. It IS possible that god intervened every single time. No one can disprove it. BUT this is not the way we can live our lives or run our schools or hospitals. We're going to keep on using penicillin.

You REALLY need to think about what this means.

This is what is wrong about using god as an explanation. It can be used anywhere and everywhere and explains nothing. It is worthless as an explanation. It explains nothing.

 

Science doesn't say that the earth created itself or "just happened." Sure, the beginning of the universe can't be completely explained, but after that one explosion, there's a good idea of what happened. Also, we can pinpoint where this explosion was in space and time, so we know it happened. The Big Bang is accepted by most people that research it, it's just that some thing God initiated it.

After the Big Bang, the resulting clouds of dust and gases and sub-atomic particles started to organize themselves. They didn't have meetings or anything, but they followed various laws of force, velocity, energy, and gravitation. The laws of physics can explain without much trouble why these huge clouds arranged into smaller "bubbles," then to spheroid galaxies which flattened because of their spinning, then to planets, stars, and solar systems by gravity. Our planet, at the correct distance from the sun, was able to create organic molecules from the sea and sky of what would be lethal to the present form of life on earth. That's been reproduced in a lab. I'm sure the possibility of a planet with 197 million square miles of surface area creating these molecules, given the energy from the sun(and lightning), plenty of CO2, and lots of time is pretty good. While most of these organic molecules combined with others to form larger molecules, broke apart, or just sat there, a couple were created that were self-replicating, that could go around and organize other molecules to be just like them. And that's about where the evolution of life on earth begins.

 

SDS - very well said.. I fully agree!!