Reincarnation verses Rebirth

But still believe in rebirth after death.

Another deepity from a somewhat notorious "Do as I say, not as I do" preacher of Tibetan Buddhism. Like Watts, Chögyam Trungpa seems to have been overly attached to the bottle. Also, the ladies.
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Chögyam Trungpa - Wikipedia
I can see it coming. Wait for it! Since there is no self , there is no problem overindulging the non-existent.

 

The operative word is "attempt", which also applies to Buddhism. Whether or not any has succeeded remains a subject of debate.

 

The teaching and accomplishments can be valued if they independently seem to be worthwhile. However, if my spiritual guide is telling me how to become enlightened and he seems to be a staggering drunk and womanizer, and dies of complications from alcoholism, that would cause me to wonder if he really was on the path to enlightenment. If he was, why did he feel the need to drown his troubles? Paradox only goes so far, until it ceases to look like profundity and more like delusion. It is certainly still possible to benefit from the teachings if they seem self-evidently true, or there are independent grounds for having confidence in them. I think there's plenty of substance and value to Buddhism if practiced, as well as preached.

 

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Seems to me that Buddhism plus the reading of Christ's words as reported in the gospels of Mark and Matthew are a good combination for the pursuit of at-one-ment with the creator.

Can't swear I'm correct in that, though. Just a thought.

 

Yeah, I think moral judgements are important. I don't think it's my job to pass judgment on people as individuals, but I think it's important to exercise judgment in choosing role models, assessing conduct and deciding whether or not to emulate it or support it. I do that with politicians and certainly with people who are purporting to be spiritual guides. Nothing wrong with liking women, but plenty wrong with being a womanizer--especially when some of them are as young as thirteen. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_in_Buddhism Of course, the tantric tradition of Tibetan Buddhism teaches that sex can be a path to enlightenment. I've noticed that myself, but in the confines of marriage--and not with underage kids. Nothing wrong with liking a drink now and then, but when your friends have to carry you cuz you can't walk, I think it's gotten out of hand--especially when it eventually kills you. He was also reported to be abusive to his students, reminiscent of so many cult leaders.The Night W.S. Merwin Was Stripped Naked by a Charismatic Buddhist Leader ‹ Literary Hub
Survivors of an International Buddhist Cult Share Their Stories
Chögyam Trungpa - Wikipedia
Why I Don't Dig Buddhism
Not someone I'd choose as a role model or to tell me what enlightenment is all about, although if they have ideas I can independently independently verify, I might adopt them.

 

Done!

 

As Meagain has argued at some length, Buddhism doesn't have the concept of a creator, and isn't about being one with God. Other than that, though, I think Buddhism has considerable spiritual value, especially the part about avoiding worldly attachments.

 

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Which is why I'm suggesting the following of Chris's advice may well be added to it. Without the Source, it's not religion, regardless of any moral or metaphysical value it offers.

 

I think that could work. I draw on Buddhist ideas, as well as ideas from other religions, to illuminate my own Christian understanding. There are some doctrines associated with both religions that would need adjustment. Atheists are attracted to Buddhism because they think it's atheistic. If Christianity is about love of God and neighbor, the second part, at least, is compatible with Buddhist teachings on compassion, and the Buddhist doctrines of Upādāna (attachment) and nekkhmma (renunciation).

 

I can't say where a person stands in the eyes of God, because I don't know all of the circumstances of his/her life. But if that person is a public figure, holding himself out as a moral teacher, I think I have not only a right but a duty to speak out against the misconduct and/or to question whether or not I can trust what the person is telling me. That goes for Trump, Desantis, or even Chogyam Trungpa.

Apparently, the here was some sort of mechanical error--possibly a typo. This is the one I meant to post, because it deals with Chögyam Trungpa. Try Sexual abuse in Buddhism If your question is a broader inquiry into why I thought it relevant to get into the man's sex life, it was in response to your comment that there's nothing wrong with liking women and booze. It's a matter of degree.

Oh yes, everywhere there are humans. It's especially reprehensible, though when it occurs leaders who purport to be spiritual role models, like Catholic priests. Do you think it's wrong to criticize the misconduct of Catholic priests? I mean, to err is human; everybody makes mistakes--some over and over again. When they claim to be plugged into a superior morality or enlightenment , It makes one wonder whether or not that is true. Sex scandals have plagued western Buddhism as they have the Catholic Church. The ‘King’ of Shambhala Buddhism Is Undone by Abuse Report (Published 2018) Zen has also had its share. The Zen Buddhist Who Preyed on His Upper East Side Students

 

I'm not negating his accomplishments or deciding on how great he is. I'm just wondering if I can trust his judgment about enlightenment, non-self, etc., when he seems to be pretty self-indulgent and exhibiting behaviors I associate with ultimate dissatisfaction instead of inner peace. If a Catholic priest caught molesting the altar boys writes a book about the blessings of celibacy, I might wonder if I should take it seriously. Face it, Chögyam Trungpa seems to be pretty extreme in having sex with under age girls and chronic drunkenness, which seem like "attachments" and self-indulgent.

People are certainly people, inclined to vice. I thought the purpose of Buddhism and other spiritual or enlightement disciplines was to help people to overcome such attachments. If not, what is the purpose?

As is so often the case, it came up as a side issue in the context of a discussion we were having. You quoted Chögyam Trungpa's deep thoughts that "continuity is the change". I suppose I could have left it at finding that to be a meaningless statement. I do think it's relevant, as apparently you do not, to consider inconsistencies between an "authority'" pretensions and aspects of his personal life which suggest he might not be all that enlightened-- otherwise why does he choose to live like that?

Yes, as a matter of fact. As I indicated in previous posts, I'm puzzled by it. I can understand resurrection and transmigration of the soul. I don't believe in them, but at least i understand what they're saying. But I find it difficult to reconcile anatman, non-self, and non-transmigration with rebirth. What exactly is reborn? It strikes me as another deepity, like Chögyam Trungpa's "continuity is change." I suspect that the doctrine came about when the Buddha or whoever rejected the vedantic doctrine of atman and reincarnation but failed to jettison karma and samsara. This led to a contradiction, which was reconciled, as such things tend to be, in deepities which sound impressive but make no sense. Kinda like what Catholics call "mysteries", but Buddhists won't admit it. Personally, I (or the non-self associated with me) don't expect to be reborn, reincarnated, resurrected, transmigrated, or going anyplace but the crematorium after I die.

 

It depends. I certainly concede that badly flawed people can do great things. I still admire Thomas Jefferson (Mr. "All Men are Created Equal"in many respects, even though he owned 600 slaves and had sex with one of them. However, I think I can confirm his claim about equality on other grounds. I can admire Chögyam Trungpa's achievements, but when he tells me to regard myself as selfless and seems to be exceptionally self-indulgent in ways that suggest he's compensating for some sense of deficiency, I'd hesitate to follow his advice without independent confirmation.