Regan died

newo · Jun 6, 2004

Reagan was more style than substance.
His style was substantial.
His substance was substandard.

I don't mourn the guy, people give him too much credit, saying he toppled communism, when the truth is the Soviet Union was already in a downward spiral when he took office. His trickle-down economics were a failure, increasing hunger in America. He renewed optimism and patriotism among Americans, but in doing so he made "liberal" a dirty word, making it difficult to speak out against him. And of course there's Iran-Contra.

Still, there's something to be said for the man's charisma. He said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" and two years later the Berlin Wall was torn down. He got people to rally behind him and believe in America again after the years of Vietnam, Watergate and the Iran Hostage Crisis. Maybe what must be admitted about Reagan is that he came along at the right time.

GrievousAngel · Jun 6, 2004

Mui and Dharma, you two are the perfect example of egotistical, and the arrogant left. Your use of the word facist is sooooooooo correct. I am glad i never saw Reagan's Facist Regime (RFR) for future reference.

razm · Jun 6, 2004

people give him too much credit, saying he toppled communism, when the truth is the Soviet Union was already in a downward spiral when he took office.
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True that the USSR was turning for the worse when Mr. Reagan took the helm, but he's the man that steered us into winning.

A friend's research paper said:

The decade followed would represent a drastic change in course for US foreign policy and relations with the Soviet Union. As the SALT and ABM treaties turned out to be ineffective, and only led to a sharper Soviet buildup, nuclear tensions were mounting. Faith in détente was declining. By 1981, the Cold War had entered one of its most confrontational periods. The election of Ronald Reagan as President of the United States in 1980 was perhaps the most important and impacting event in Cold War history. Reagan, an archconservative and ardent anti-communist, campaigned on a platform of tough foreign policy. He was determined to turn the country around and play hardball with the Soviet Union. Unlike Nixon and Carter, Reagan was unwilling to compromise with any middle ground. Despite Nixon and Carter’s large military and arms buildup, he publicly criticized them for letting the Soviets gain the advantage.

At home, SDI was met with much criticism from liberals who either viewed SDI as dangerously unnecessary, too expensive, or technologically unfeasible. Immediately the liberal media, unable to grasp the seriousness and complexity of the SDI model, dubbed it as “Star Wars”, based on the hit sci-fi movies from the 1970’s. Such critics often trivialized the significance and potential for SDI, and brushed it off, thinking Reagan would soon abandon it. In contrast, Reagan remained devoted to pushing forward SDI as a way to cool the nuclear tensions. For example, one study by the Union of Concerned Scientists that criticized the SDI program wrongly speculated that 2,400 satellites, each costing $1 billion, would be needed to defend a Soviet attack.43 This meant the government would need to place thousands of satellites, totaling trillions of dollars into space. In reality, a study conducted by the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory determined approximately 90 satellites would be needed to cover the entire globe.
http://www.4ranters.com/detail.php?id=93
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His trickle-down economics were a failure
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Wrong, they were a smashing success man.

Economic Growth. The average annual growth rate of real gross domestic product (GDP) from 1981 to 1989 was 3.2 percent per year, compared with 2.8 percent from 1974 to 1981 and 2.1 percent from 1989 to 1995. The 3.2 percent growth rate for the Reagan years includes the recession of the early 1980s, which was a side effect of reversing Carter's high-inflation policies, and the seven expansion years, 1983-89. During the economic expansion alone, the economy grew by a robust annual rate of 3.8 percent. By the end of the Reagan years, the American economy was almost one-third larger than it was when they began. [13] Figure 1 shows the economic growth rate by president since World War II. That rate was higher in the 1980s than in the 1950s and 1970s but was substantially lower than the rapid economic growth rate of more than 4 percent per year in the 1960s. The Kennedy income tax rate cuts of 30 percent that were enacted in 1964 generated several years of 5 percent annual real growth.

Economic Growth per Working-Age Adult. When we adjust the economic growth rates to take account of demographic changes, we find that the expansion in the Reagan years looks even better and that the 1970s' performance looks worse. GDP growth per adult aged 20-64 in the Reagan years grew twice as rapidly, on average, as it did in the pre- and post-Reagan years.

Median Household Incomes. Real median household income rose by $4,000 in the Reagan years--from $37,868 in 1981 to $42,049 in 1989, as shown in Figure 2. This improvement was a stark reversal of the income trends in the late 1970s and the 1990s: median family income was unchanged in the eight pre-Reagan years, and incomes have fallen by $1,438 in the anti-supply-side 1990s, following the 1990 and 1993 tax hikes. [14] Most of the declines in take-home pay occurred on George Bush's watch. Under Bill Clinton's tenure, there has been zero income growth in median household income.

Employment. From 1981 through 1989 the U.S. economy produced 17 million new jobs, or roughly 2 million new jobs each year. Contrary to the Clinton administration's claims of vast job gains in the 1990s, the United States has averaged only 1.3 million new jobs per year in the post-Reagan years. The labor force United States has averaged only 1.3 million new jobs expanded by 1.7 percent per year between 1981 and 1989, but by just 1.2 percent per year between 1990 and 1995. [15]

Hours Worked. Table 1 confirms that hours worked per adult aged 20-64 grew much faster in the 1980s than in the pre -or post-Reagan years.

Unemployment Rate. When Reagan took office in 1981, the unemployment rate was 7.6 percent. In the recession of 1981-82, that rate peaked at 9.7 percent, but it fell continuously for the next seven years. When Reagan left office, the unemployment rate was 5.5 percent. This reduction in joblessness was a clear triumph of the Reagan program. Figure 3 shows that in the pre-Reagan years, the unemployment rate trended upward; in the Reagan years, the unemployment rate trended downward; and in the post-Reagan years, the unemployment rate has fluctuated up and down but today remains virtually unchanged from the 1989 rate.

Productivity. For real wages to rise, productivity must rise. Over the past 30 years there has been a secular downward trend in U.S. productivity growth. Under Reagan, productivity grew at a 1.5 percent annual rate, as shown in Figure 4. This was lower than in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s but much higher than in the post-Reagan years. Under Clinton, productivity has increased at an annual rate of just 0.3 percent per year--the worst presidential performance since that of Herbert Hoover.

Inflation. The central economic evil that Ronald Reagan inherited in 1981 from Jimmy Carter was three years of double-digit inflation. In 1980 the consumer price index (CPI) rose to 13.5 percent. By Reagan's second year in office, the inflation rate fell by more than half to 6.2 percent. In 1988, Reagan's last year in office, the CPI had fallen to 4.1 percent. Figure 5 shows the inflation and interest rate trend.

Interest Rates. In 1980 the interest rate on a 30-year mortgage was 15 percent; this rate rose to its all-time peak of 18.9 percent in 1981. The prime rate steadily fell over the subsequent six years to a low of 8.2 percent in 1987 as the inflationary expectation component of interest rates fell sharply. The prime rate hit its 20-year low in 1993 at 6.0 percent. The Treasury Bill rate also fell dramatically in the 1980s--from 14 percent in 1981 to 7 percent in 1988. In the 1990s, interest rates have continued to migrate gradually downward, as shown in Figure 5.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-261.html

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I mean dude, it is undoubted that President Reagan produced one of the greatest periods of economic growth in general with his supply side economics. I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton even said that his tax cuts caused the economic explosion in the 90's, but don't quote me. Plus he got rid of tax shelters man.....I would have assumed you to be thrilled about that.

Ronald Reagan's success cannot be put on circumstance, he's the guy that got it done. I mean yeah, there were circumstances, but I mean sheesh they were more like incredible obstacles to be over come, and he either did it or started the ball rolling. Nice post newo.

Maverick · Jun 6, 2004

God-*goes on a swearing fit*
Can't a dead man get any respect? I swear, you people are idiots. He's dead! Let it go! What the hell is your problem? Stop kicking a dead horse and find something else to do! Let him have some dignity for God's sake.

Maggie Sugar · Jun 6, 2004

Ellis, thank you for putting RayGun into the Perspective he should be put into for this site!!!! Last time I checked, this was Hip Forum A Hippie Site. Anyone who had the contempt for Hippies this man Raygun had, and had the Blood Lust for war and war machines he did needs to be looked at with a critical eye by those who have gone out of their way (as I and others here have) to join a Hippie Website!!!!

I am sure Nancy is releived. As much as I do not care for this womyn and her ilk, I can't imagine what living with a man, drooling and in diapers, who cannot speak, or even recognise her, is like. I am sure she is happier than she has been in 10 years.

Pressed_Rat · Jun 6, 2004

Maggie Sugar said:

Ellis, thank you for putting RayGun into the Perspective he should be put into for this site!!!! Last time I checked, this was Hip Forum A Hippie Site. Anyone who had the contempt for Hippies this man Raygun had, and had the Blood Lust for war and war machines he did needs to be looked at with a critical eye by those who have gone out of their way (as I and others here have) to join a Hippie Website!!!!
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I doubt most of the people that come here take the "hippy" theme seriously. These are simply forums where people of a multitude of beliefs can post their thoughts. It would be kind of lame if everyone here fit the hippy stereotype.

How is registering for a website going out of the way?

I am not a fan of Reagan myself, but he was better than Bush at running this country. Focusing on how "hippy" people are is kind of lame and silly.

EllisDTripp · Jun 7, 2004

Planet Reagan

by William Rivers Pitt

Ronald Reagan is dead now, and everyone is being nice to him. In every aspect, this is appropriate. He was a husband and a father, a beloved member of a family, and he will be missed by those he was close to. His death was long, slow and agonizing because of the Alzheimer's Disease which ruined him, one drop of lucidity at a time. My grandmother died ten years ago almost to the day because of this disease, and this disease took ten years to do its dirty, filthy, wretched work on her.

The dignity and candor of Reagan's farewell letter to the American people was as magnificent a departure from public life as any that has been seen in our history, but the ugly truth of his illness was that he lived on, and on, and on. His family and friends watched as he faded from the world of the real, as the simple dignity afforded to all life collapsed like loose sand behind his ever more vacant eyes. Only those who have seen Alzheimer's Disease invade a mind can know the truth of this. It is a cursed way to die.

In this mourning space, however, there must be room made for the truth. Writer Edward Abbey once said, "The sneakiest form of literary subtlety, in a corrupt society, is to speak the plain truth. The critics will not understand you; the public will not believe you; your fellow writers will shake their heads."

The truth is straightforward: Virtually every significant problem facing the American people today can be traced back to the policies and people that came from the Reagan administration. It is a laundry list of ills, woes and disasters that has all of us, once again, staring apocalypse in the eye.

How can this be? The television says Ronald Reagan was one of the most beloved Presidents of the 20th century. He won two national elections, the second by a margin so overwhelming that all future landslides will be judged by the high-water mark he achieved against Walter Mondale. How can a man so universally respected have played a hand in the evils which corrupt our days?

The answer lies in the reality of the corrupt society Abbey spoke of. Our corruption is the absolute triumph of image over reality, of flash over substance, of the pervasive need within most Americans to believe in a happy-face version of the nation they call home, and to spurn the reality of our estate as unpatriotic. Ronald Reagan was, and will always be, the undisputed heavyweight champion of salesmen in this regard.

Reagan was able, by virtue of his towering talents in this arena, to sell to the American people a flood of poisonous policies. He made Americans feel good about acting against their own best interests. He sold the American people a lemon, and they drive it to this day as if it was a Cadillac. It isn't the lies that kill us, but the myths, and Ronald Reagan was the greatest myth-maker we are ever likely to see.

Mainstream media journalism today is a shameful joke because of Reagan's deregulation policies. Once upon a time, the Fairness Doctrine ensured that the information we receive - information vital to the ability of the people to govern in the manner intended - came from a wide variety of sources and perspectives. Reagan's policies annihilated the Fairness Doctrine, opening the door for a few mega-corporations to gather journalism unto themselves. Today, Reagan's old bosses at General Electric own three of the most-watched news channels. This company profits from every war we fight, but somehow is trusted to tell the truths of war. Thus, the myths are sold to us.

The deregulation policies of Ronald Reagan did not just deliver journalism to these massive corporations, but handed virtually every facet of our lives into the hands of this privileged few. The air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat are all tainted because Reagan battered down every environmental regulation he came across so corporations could improve their bottom line. Our leaders are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the corporations that were made all-powerful by Reagan's deregulation craze. The Savings and Loan scandal of Reagan's time, which cost the American people hundreds of billions of dollars, is but one example of Reagan's decision that the foxes would be fine guards in the henhouse.

Ronald Reagan believed in small government, despite the fact that he grew government massively during his time. Social programs which protected the weakest of our citizens were gutted by Reagan's policies, delivering millions into despair. Reagan was able to do this by caricaturing the "welfare queen," who punched out babies by the barnload, who drove the flashy car bought with your tax dollars, who refused to work because she didn't have to. This was a vicious, racist lie, one result of which was the decimation of a generation by crack cocaine. The urban poor were left to rot because Ronald Reagan believed in 'self-sufficiency.'

Because Ronald Reagan could not be bothered to fund research into 'gay cancer,' the AIDS virus was allowed to carve out a comfortable home in America. The aftershocks from this callous disregard for people whose homosexuality was deemed evil by religious conservatives cannot be overstated. Beyond the graves of those who died from a disease which was allowed to burn unchecked, there are generations of Americans today living with the subconscious idea that sex equals death.

The veneer of honor and respect painted across the legacy of Ronald Reagan is itself a myth of biblical proportions. The coverage proffered today of the Reagan legacy seldom mentions impropriety until the Iran/Contra scandal appears on the administration timeline. This sin of omission is vast. By the end of his term in office, some 138 Reagan administration officials had been convicted, indicted or investigated for misconduct and/or criminal activities.

Some of the names on this disgraceful roll-call: Oliver North, John Poindexter, Richard Secord, Casper Weinberger, Elliott Abrams, Robert C. McFarlane, Michael Deaver, E. Bob Wallach, James Watt, Alan D. Fiers, Clair George, Duane R. Clarridge, Anne Gorscuh Burford, Rita Lavelle, Richard Allen, Richard Beggs, Guy Flake, Louis Glutfrida, Edwin Gray, Max Hugel, Carlos Campbell, John Fedders, Arthur Hayes, J. Lynn Helms, Marjory Mecklenburg, Robert Nimmo, J. William Petro, Thomas C. Reed, Emanuel Savas, Charles Wick. Many of these names are lost to history, but more than a few of them are still with us today, 'rehabilitated' by the administration of George W. Bush.
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(Continued in next post)

EllisDTripp · Jun 7, 2004

(Continued from last post)

Ronald Reagan actively supported the regimes of the worst people ever to walk the earth. Names like Marcos, Duarte, Rios Mont and Duvalier reek of blood and corruption, yet were embraced by the Reagan administration with passionate intensity. The ground of many nations is salted with the bones of those murdered by brutal rulers who called Reagan a friend. Who can forget his support of those in South Africa who believed apartheid was the proper way to run a civilized society?

One dictator in particular looms large across our landscape. Saddam Hussein was a creation of Ronald Reagan. The Reagan administration supported the Hussein regime despite his incredible record of atrocity. The Reagan administration gave Hussein intelligence information which helped the Iraqi military use their chemical weapons on the battlefield against Iran to great effect. The deadly bacterial agents sent to Iraq during the Reagan administration are a laundry list of horrors.

The Reagan administration sent an emissary named Donald Rumsfeld to Iraq to shake Saddam Hussein's hand and assure him that, despite public American condemnation of the use of those chemical weapons, the Reagan administration still considered him a welcome friend and ally. This happened while the Reagan administration was selling weapons to Iran, a nation notorious for its support of international terrorism, in secret and in violation of scores of laws.

Another name on Ronald Reagan's roll call is that of Osama bin Laden. The Reagan administration believed it a bully idea to organize an army of Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union. bin Laden became the spiritual leader of this action. Throughout the entirety of Reagan's term, bin Laden and his people were armed, funded and trained by the United States. Reagan helped teach Osama bin Laden the lesson he lives by today, that it is possible to bring a superpower to its knees. bin Laden believes this because he has done it once before, thanks to the dedicated help of Ronald Reagan.

In 1998, two American embassies in Africa were blasted into rubble by Osama bin Laden, who used the Semtex sent to Afghanistan by the Reagan administration to do the job. In 2001, Osama bin Laden thrust a dagger into the heart of the United States, using men who became skilled at the art of terrorism with the help of Ronald Reagan. Today, there are 827 American soldiers and over 10,000 civilians who have died in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, a war that came to be because Reagan helped manufacture both Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

How much of this can be truthfully laid at the feet of Ronald Reagan? It depends on who you ask. Those who worship Reagan see him as the man in charge, the man who defeated Soviet communism, the man whose vision and charisma made Americans feel good about themselves after Vietnam and the malaise of the 1970s. Those who despise Reagan see him as nothing more than a pitch-man for corporate raiders, the man who allowed greed to become a virtue, the man who smiled vapidly while allowing his officials to run the government for him.

In the final analysis, however, the legacy of Ronald Reagan - whether he had an active hand in its formulation, or was merely along for the ride - is beyond dispute. His famous question, "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?" is easy to answer. We are not better off than we were four years ago, or eight years ago, or twelve, or twenty. We are a badly damaged state, ruled today by a man who subsists off Reagan's most corrosive final gift to us all: It is the image that matters, and be damned to the truth.
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Maggie Sugar · Jun 7, 2004

I doubt most of the people that come here take the "hippy" theme seriously. These are simply forums where people of a multitude of beliefs can post their thoughts. It would be kind of lame if everyone here fit the hippy stereotype.
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True.(But there is a difference between "stereotype" and actual being.) I have nothing against multiple beleifs,(wouldn't be a good hippie if I did LOL) it keeps things interesting, and it important. But people really should at least aknowlege the origins of this site. And the fact that Raygun had a rabid hatred of Hippies.

How is registering for a website going out of the way?
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Well, I didn't just register. I searched for a site I thought would be close to my lifestyle and the way I live. I looked at quite a few, did several engine searches, and a lot of reading and lurking and chose this one. I know not everyone here did this, but it means at least something to me.

mynameiskc · Jun 7, 2004

i just kinda tripped over it one day, read up a bit, and really liked the wide variety of views and lifestyles. you don't grow by only talking to a being with people just like you, you stagnate, you lose your ability to make sound arguments if everyone just believes you anyway. besides, i'm surrounded on all sides by people who are very conservative and kinda mock me for not being conservative enough. it's kinda creepy. but it's funny, i get yelled at here for the exact opposite, yet the same, reason. lol.

Maggie Sugar · Jun 8, 2004

That isn't what I was saying KC. I did look for a hippie freindly site. That doesn't mean I only want to talk to people who agree with me about everything. I have a real life, with a large number of people in it, who have a lot of different beleifs and value systems. I CHOOSE this site, because I though there would be like minded people here. WHY on earth else would someone come to a "hippie site?" I can't figure that one out. Everyone likes somewhere they can go where they feel they belong.

mynameiskc · Jun 8, 2004

well sure, maggie. i also come here for the wide variety of people and opinions. but since i don't belong anywhere else, either, this place does fine. i have a lot of friends here.

newo · Jun 8, 2004

People have been waiting 5 hours and more to file past his coffin. Americans have bought Ronald Reagan hook line and sinker.

Just when the Bush campaign needed a shot in the arm....

mynameiskc · Jun 8, 2004

lol. that's actually kinda funny.

Maggie Sugar · Jun 8, 2004

Yeah, a Politically Convenient Death. LOL!

mynameiskc · Jun 8, 2004

a republican to the core. i wonder when the conspiracy theories will come up.

Lizz · Jun 8, 2004

Reagan was a republican, yes. He was a conservative, yes. I'll never say that I ever agreed with his policies, because I didn't and still don't. But he was a good leader. He gave our country a sense of OPTIMISM, of HOPE. That's not something Bush is doing right now. Bush is appealing to the worst in us, and his approval ratings are through the floor. Reagan may not have made the best moves during his presidency, but that's no reason to hate him. I wouldn't exactly call him a fascist, either. I know for a fact he would NOT have sent us to Iraq. It's not nice to pinhole all republicans into the same category, either. Sure, there have been much better presidents. Sure, his policies were questionable. Of course, now Bush is saying he's trying to be Reagan. I'm no republican or conservative, I'm much more far to the left, but so many who call themselves leftists are blinded into thinking "o da iraq war wuz so bad! we shouldnt have gone! republicans are devillz!"... Those people are just as bad as any conservative ever was. See, I applaud those conservative, those TRUE conservatives, who look past the lies of Bush or anything the media might be blindly feeding them. They have a TRUE basis for their opinions. Any person who truly fights for their opinions, no matter what. Bush has moved the republican party farther than it has ever been. So many liberals are always so pessimistic. At least people like Reagan were OPTIMISTIC. Iraq was a bad idea, of course, but what are you gonna do about it?

Again, I'm no republican. Or democrat. I'm very liberal, my self. Hell, I LIKE communism (well, Marxism), but I'm not going to hope Reagan is burning in hell or anything.

And to re-electgore, I noticed your signature. My sister and mother absolutely ADORED Edwards. Me, I was more of a Dean supporter, myself.

That was not aimed at anyone, just my 2 cents.

And young people can have strong political opinions, too. I know I do.

Rockman · Jun 9, 2004

I'm tired of all this "I may not agree with what he did, but he was a good person...blah blah blah" bullshit.

How many Latin American death squads to you have to support before you're officially a bad person?

How many fascist regimes do you have to back before you're officially a bad person?

How many vicious muslim fundamentalists do you have to back before you're a bad person?

How many hundreds of billions of dollars do you have to help steal before you're a bad person?

Reagan was at the forefront of the economic policies that are destroying the world today. Was there economic growth? Yes, at the cost of a massive debt, a decimated social safety net, a recession and the S&L scandal, where the theives made off with hundreds of billions of dollars. Worse yet, he was another of the long line of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" presidents backing some of the most nasty terroriststs (state and otherwise) on the planet to fight the demons of "communism" (or at least mild social democracy) wherever American financial interests seemed threatened. How many people had to be murdered and tortured for this man's crusade?

I'll shed no tears for him. If you had REAL respect for the dead then you'd be respecting the thousands upon thousands of the man's victims in Nicaragua, Iran, Afghanistan, El Salvador, the Phillipines, Haiti and elsewhere.

EllisDTripp · Jun 9, 2004

Bravo, Rockman! GREAT POST!!!

duke the hippie · Jun 9, 2004

When it comes to politics I plead the fifth. However I must share with you what American Senator John Kerry said about Reagan, "if he disagreed with you, he did it with a smile."

That's my two cents worth.

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Regan died

newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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razm Member

Maverick Banned

Maggie Sugar Senior Member

Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

EllisDTripp Green Secessionist

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Maggie Sugar Senior Member

mynameiskc way to go noogs!

Maggie Sugar Senior Member

mynameiskc way to go noogs!

newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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Maggie Sugar Senior Member

Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

EllisDTripp Green Secessionist

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Maggie Sugar Senior Member

mynameiskc way to go noogs!

Maggie Sugar Senior Member

mynameiskc way to go noogs!

newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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mynameiskc way to go noogs!

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