Recent Saudi Tragedy

you will send me a koran so I will see the ultimate truth ......thank you for your kind offer but Ive got a couple already

thanks for the suggestion to travel to beautiful arab countrys .....but done it already my father is a arabic speaking engineer and as a kid I lived in saudi arabia and it is very nice especially the coast apart from the religion

when I was there I believe I saw real live black slaves

the rumour at the time was they were castrated I dont know about that but slavery was made illegal in saudi arabia in the late 1960s I was there in the 1970s

saudi is the heart of islam thats where mecca is... so you would think that if islam and mohammed were against slavery it would have been outlawed before then I mean surely the influence of muslim clerics would have been able to do something

but they didnt because mohammed was a slaver

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya who is one of the greatest scholars and chroniclers of Islam. In his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (Part I, p. 160), he says,

"Muhammad had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased (more slaves) than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He (once) sold one black slave for two. His name was Jacob al-Mudbir. His purchases of slaves were more (than he sold). He was used to renting out and hiring many slaves, but he hired more slaves than he rented out.

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This trading used to take place in the slave market in the Arab Peninsula and in Mecca. Muhammad was accustomed to sell, purchase, hire, rent, and to exchange one slave for two. Thus, he had an increasing number of slaves, especially after he claimed to be a prophet, and after his immigration from Mecca to escape death at the hand of his tribe Quraysh. Also, the slaves of Muhammad and his followers were constantly increasing as the result of those who were captured in wars and not only by purchase. The Names of Muhammad's Slaves

A) Male Slaves:

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya relies always on the prophet's biographies written by great ancient scholars. Therefore, he is regarded by Muslims as an authority, a primary source and a leader among the students of the Islamic religion. This scholar tells us in his book, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116), the following,

"These are the names of Muhammad's male slaves: Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship').

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He himself relates his own story; he says:

"The apostle of God and his companions went on a trip. (When) their belongings became too heavy for them to carry, Muhammad told me, `Spread your garment.' They filled it with their belongings, then they put it on me. The apostle of God told me, `Carry (it), for you are a ship.' Even if I was carrying the load of six or seven donkeys while we were on a journey, anyone who felt weak would throw his clothes or his shield or his sword on me so I would carry that, a heavy load. The prophet told me, `You are a ship"' (refer to Ibn Qayyim, pp. 115-116; al-Hulya, Vol. 1, p. 369, quoted from Ahmad 5:222).

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Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya is not the only one who recorded this episode and the list of names of Muhammad's slaves. The Tabari also (in his Chronicles, Volume 2 p. 216, 217, 218) presents us with these accounts. No one among the contemporary Muslim leaders denies these matters, especially if he is faced with the Tabari's and Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's records.

Still, in regard to Muhammad's slave Zayd Ibn Haritha, Muhammad set him free and adopted him, then he married him to his (Muhammad's) cousin Zaynab. Later Zayd divorced her after he realized that Muhammad was captivated by her. The scandalous story is documented by verses in the Qur'an, and Muslim scholars admit it.

B) Maid Slaves:

In this same Section (One, p. 116), Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya as well as other Muslim authors of chronicles recorded the list of names of Muhammad's maid-slaves. They are Salma Um Rafi', Maymuna daughter of Abu Asib, Maymuna daughter of Sa'd, Khadra, Radwa, Razina, Um Damira, Rayhana, Mary the Coptic, in addition to two other maid-slaves, one of them given to him as a present by his cousin, Zaynab, and the other one captured in a war.

 

The Qur'an says very clearly: "To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow, let them not then dispute with you on the matter, but do invite (them) to your Lord: for you are assuredly on the Right Way. If they do wrangle with you, say, 'God knows best what it is you are doing.' 'God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ.'" (Al-Hajj: 76-69)



this first sura is a meccan sura it was revealed in a period when mohammed didnt have a great big army behind him later when he did he wrote lots nasty sura they are the ones that apply today

so this sura that you quote is not in force today

about abrogation and understanding the importance of when something was revealed

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkazem/face_of_islam.htm

"Allah does not forbid you that you show kindness and deal justly with those who did not fight you in your religion and did not drive you out from your homes…" (Al-Mumtahinah: 8)

this is a medina sura one of the most friendly

gosh allah doesnt forbid you to show kindness and deal justly....... thats good of him. what does not fight you in your religion mean lets say I think islam sucks Im a atheist and lets say mohammed claims atheists drove muslims out of their homes earlier where do I stand then

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." (Al-Baqarah: 190)

what are these limits

5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter







none of these verses tells you to love your neighbour

 

All I can say is that alot of your facts are not straight. However I chose not to be Muslim or Christian or Jew is because they are all negative belief systems based on male ego.

Surah 109. The Disbelievers, Atheists



1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Surah 107. Small Kindnesses, Almsgiving, Have You Seen?


1. Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?

2. Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),

3. And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.

4. So woe to the worshippers

5. Who are neglectful of their prayers,

6. Those who (want but) to be seen (of men), 7. But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.

Surah 103. The Declining Day, Eventide, The Epoch


1. By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

2. Verily Man is in loss, 3. Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

 

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. 6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

again this is a meccan sura and doesnt apply the atheists and pagans that believed mohammed when he said this ended up either dead or slaves

Surah 107. Small Kindnesses, Almsgiving, Have You Seen?


1. Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?

2. Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),

3. And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.

4. So woe to the worshippers

5. Who are neglectful of their prayers,

6. Those who (want but) to be seen (of men), 7. But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.


how many people did mohammed make orphans and why should I care if someone who marrys a six year old and tortures and kills people wants to preach at me

Surah 103. The Declining Day, Eventide, The Epoch


1. By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

2. Verily Man is in loss, 3. Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

Ive never crucified anyone or had sex with children so I would imagine the man writing this verse has more to fear if there is a judgement than me.
I dont have any faith in him or his teachings he was a very immoral man so why should I
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I have never heard anything in my entire life about Muhammed sodomizing children. I really think that is bullshit. Please take the time to show me some real evidence.
I remember learning when I was younger about him buying slaves and freeing them. One story comes to mind about him knowing a rich Quraish (non believer) who was punishing a slave by laying heavy stones on him. And Muhammed bought the slave so he could spare him.
You are saying something about Meccan suras. There is only one version of the Quran and that is coming straight from the holy book. Most people dont even follow their own religions, and are so far off and hypocritical.


Islam (peace) was meant to be a peaceful religion and from the hadith and teachings of the prophet it was no worse than any of the middle east religions.

 

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65<I>
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

 

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

And in another Hadith we read.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon.



Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151 <I>
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

 

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

.....................................................................................

when its says 9 years it actually means 8 1/2 cause they used a different type of month so hes 51 when he marrys her shes 6 well less than six
and as I understand it she had penetrative sex when hes 54 shes 8 1/2 now I can understand that people did things differently in the past but is this best practice can someone give real consent at six
he also made it a rule that his wives were never allowed to re-marry so when he died shes 18 a young women with the est of her life in front of her and she has to live the rest of her life alone after this dodgy pedophile has molested her

read the link to abrogation use a tafseer to see when a particular verse is given in the koran this is quite a good online one http://www.tafsir.com/
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http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm


http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha_age.htm

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Johny what I dont get is why you just point finger at Islam and not the rest of the world and major religions. You have to remember that all those holy books were written a couple thousand years ago. Women were married young not only in Islam but everywhere. People didnt live very long,and as soon a girl had her period she was ready to make babies.
In the bible women are seen as property just like the Quran.
Exodus

20:17 Insulting Tenth Commandment, considering a wife to be property
21:7-11 Unfair rules for female servants, may be sex slaves
22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
38:8 Women may not enter tabernacle they must support

Leviticus

12:1-14 Women who have sons are unclean 7 days
12:4-7 Women who have daughters are unclean 14 days
15:19-23 Menstrual periods are unclean
19:20-22 If master has sex with engaged woman, she shall be scourged

Numbers

1:2 Poll of people only includes men
5:13-31 Barbaric adulteress test
31:16-35 "virgins" listed as war booty

Deuteronomy

21:11-14 Rape manual
22:5 Abomination for women to wear men's garments, vice-versa
22:13-21 Barbaric virgin test
22:23-24 woman raped in city, she & her rapist both stoned to death
22:28-29 woman must marry her rapist
24:1 Men can divorce woman for "uncleanness," not vice-versa
25:11-12 If woman touches foe's penis, her hand shall be cut off

Judges

11:30-40 Jephthah's nameless daughter sacrificed
19:22-29 Concubine sacrificed to rapist crowd to save man

I Kings 11:1-4 King Solomon had 700 wives & 300 concubines

Job 14:1-4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one . . ."

Proverbs

7:9-27 Evil women seduce men, send them to hell

11:22 One of numerous Proverbial putdowns

Isaiah 3:16-17 God scourges, rapes haughty women

Ezekiel 16:45 One of numerous obscene denunciations

Luke 2:22 Mary is unclean after birth of Jesus

I Corinthians

11:3-15 Man is head of women; only man in God's image
14:34-35 Women keep in silence, learn only from husbands

Ephesians 5:22-33 "Wives, submit . . ."

Colossians 3:18 More "wives submit"

I Timothy

2:9 Women adorn selves in shamefacedness
2:11-14 Women learn in silence in all subjection; Eve was sinful, Adam blameless

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man," (I Tim. 2:12)

"Wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord," (Eph. 5:22)

"Women should be silent in the churches." (I Cor. 14:34).

Judges 21:10-24
...destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan...

Numbers 31:7-18Moses..."Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves...

Deuteronomy 20:10-14)...you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


The slavery in Islam has been mostly abolished a long time ago. The kind of slaves that the rich people had are the same thing as servants. Look at the corruption still today, and the groups of people down south in the USA who hate black people. You can find valid points in either way. HATE is everywhere and I see the flaw in all of them. Christianity is no better than Islam. They have all done their part in hurting humanity.

 

Exactly.

This debate is completely, utterly, absolutely INSANE. Anyone with half a mind could tell you that Christianity has caused as much misery on this planet as Islam - perhaps more... It certainly wasn't Muslims who committed the GENOCIDE of native americans - not even Jews have been decimated in the manner that the natives of the americas were - in the name of "spreading CHRISTIANITY." I mean, whole COUNTRIES - ISLANDS full of people just completely DEAD, gone forever, entire cultures wiped out, never to be heard from again. Thousands and thousands of women, slaughtered as "witches" - in Europe, in the Americas, in Africa... Hundreds of millions of Africans enslaved under BIBLICAL law. At one point, Christians killed so many women in witch hunts through Europe, women had to be IMPORTED to many Swiss towns.

And presenting verses from the Koran as "proof" of how violent Muslims are? The entire Old Testament is a record of Jews murdering people, for christ's sake! And whether the New Testament is "nicer" or not is irrelevant, since the Bible was used not to spread peace and love, but to commit the largest genocides in recorded history, to decimate the lives of billions, for land theft, and to attack anyone who was not "christian."

This debate is CRAZY.

 

yeah, it's all the same. imperialism and robbery under the banner of false religion. it will always be "hey, look what THEY have! where's my bible/koran? surely there's some excuse in here to take it from them!" but it's not just christians and muslims who've done it. i'm fairly sure there's always a bit of "my god can kick your god's ass because your god doesn't exist" or some crap like that involved in all forms of imperialism.

 

at the moment I dont think christians are burning witches ,I dont see much support in modern christian theology for taking a cheeky son out in the town square and having all the people of the town stone him either

this isnt the case with islamic theology

and one of the reasons Im pointing out what islam teaches is the left in particular are giving islamists a easy ride , they arnt alone can you imagine what the media would do if the bible said jesus had sex with children
that story would be printed on the front page in my country but its not allowed to be heard when you talk about islam

a couple of days ago I was on the main anti fascist website in the uk and on the list of people behind the group is the man who organised the book burnings of the satanic verses he then set up a seperate muslim parliment

if you were to ask him what his agenda is he would say he wanted to have a world run on the lines of Iran, where you kill homosexuals, stone people and gouge eyes out
how is this man accepted and honoured as being a anti fascist

every peace march I went to you had lots of people carrying placards for islamic jihad and hezbollah I pointed this out at the time why ?

during the 30s the left supported josef stalin because they didnt like hitler I think people are making the same mistake today

islam is on a roll at the moment it isnt a religion its a political ideology and it wants to take over the world just like the nazis did
but for some reason and I can only think its racism, no one on the left seems to want to oppose it

 

You know, I've read all the comments here - certainly a wide spectrum concerning beliefs about not just different religious beliefs, but interpretations of beliefs. My question was simple, I wasn't looking for the educated Siskel and Ebert version of what deserves the thumbs up - the bible or the koran.

The fact is simple - I wish no ill will on anyone. Sure, I live in a country where many people are intolerant, but I am an INDIVIDUAL. Just because I didn't vote for Bush or whoever, should I leave the country? Just because I don't subscribe strongly to a particular religion should I die (now because of Islamic zealots or had it been years ago with the Spanish crusade because of Christian zealots?)

That's the problem I have with almost all organized religion - it gives Zero respect to the individual. I have a very simple value simple - all I care to be is a good friend, relative and hopefully someday father to other human beings.

Not one of you has made a sound case for why I would be dead right now had I happened to be in Saudi Arabia during this event. One of you even claimed it was their fault - 'they knew the dangers' or something along those lines. And whoever said that I ask, If I'm shot down and killed in a an american ghetto do I deserve it because I knew the risk was there?

This thread has gotten real SCARY aside from the words of a few. It just points to the intolerance of this world. I'm no John Lennon, I am far different from that, but the point is lets be INDIVIDUALS and live and let live.