Reasons for nonbelief

I respect your personal idea. My personal idea about it is entirely different though. This is how I see things. If god truly exists and is the creator of the universe and everything that exists within it's boundaries, then he must also be responsible for the creation of all thoughts and emotions as well. It would not be possible for any creation of god to think or feel a particular way unless he had made it possible. This would have to include emotions such as hatred and misery, as well as love and joy. It would have to include thoughts such as murder and greed as well as compassion and generosity. Some would argue that lucifer is responsible for leading people down these paths and is the deliverer of temptation and rebellion. This is not a very valid arguement in my opinion since god would have also had to create satan. Therefore it would not be possible for him to perform these actions had god not made the choice to design him to function in such a way.

 

In the end, what does it matter if one believes or not? Your belief has little impact on me unless you intend to harm me, in which case I am going to defend myself. Like Malcolm X said if his family is in danger, he will protect them, "by whatever means necessary."

That is the only matter. Why is belief supposedly required, the Spirit I believe in is not so vain as to need it.

 

I have an issue with what you say because your view would mean that g-d personally sees to every single quality of every single thing in the entire universe, which is ok, but further that every single thing we do is attributed to his will. You're working off the christian bible, I'm guessing, because you're talking about very christian concepts, such as hell; if you do so then perhaps you should reconsider the concept of free will.

If you believe that g-d is in complete control of everything, you must reconcile yourself to the fact that bad things happen to good people, famine, war, disease, are all specifically aimed at everyone affected by them. G-d controls not only what happens to you, but how you react to it, so your feelings of hopelessness, despair, hate, fear, anger (most of which g-d has said he doesn't want us to manifest, if we're still looking at it through the eyes of the christian bible), are all directly attributed to him as well. Not only this, but you must reconcile yourself to the fact that you are doing just what we all hate people doing, which is selectively remembering parts of the bible, and ignoring others, such as our gift of free will, and further the status of angels as compared to g-d, which certainly isn't the same as human status compared to g-d. (We're like the workers and the customers, where G-d is the CEOs and the owners, and the angels are the economy/market/weather etc. It's a different plane of existence, and beings do not exist so much on a heirarchy as hard to measure up against one another.) You can twist and modify and reconcile yourself, or you can look at it in the light of our gift of free will and realise we do what WE do, not what he wants us to.

But like i've said before, we were made in g-d's image, and the torah speaks of his wrath/anger, and his mistakes. He isn't some huge perfect untouchable being, which is the view held by many christians who need to have a refreshed look at their old testament.

 

God wants us to kiss and make up. Globally.

 

what is this g-d stuff?! Is that even the proper name of god, god is a position, like general or president.

Are people so bored that they have to complicate thier life with picky little details, oh yea.

 

I am not twisting or modifying anything. It isn't my intention to prove Christianity to be wrong or convince anyone that it is. I am merely stating what I believe would have to be fact if god did indeed create everything. I also agree with the statement that god, if he exists, would be an imperfect being. Not in a bad sense, but in a sense of unity that all things good and bad could not exist without him.

 

Don't you just love tigger? Piglet too....and Eeyore. They are way more interesting than Melchizedek and Zerubabbel, whoever they were, and they dont hamstring the horses in Pooh either.

 

I'm not doing it for picky details, and I'm not 'censoring' anything, like someone said earlier..there are more reasons than the ones I'm giving you, so if you're actually interested you can ask

Anyway, the most easy to understand explanation, (and one of the reasons I never say g-d in its entirety in any form, except in certain circumstances,) is because in judaism every letter, and further the name as a whole, represent that object/thing/person etc's reputation, and who/what they are. With g-d, the initial/main name derives from the word Heh-Yod-Heh (3 letters) which basically means 'to be', meaning..well, the meaning essentially represents what g-d is to many people, and WHO he is to many people.. I don't write the name in full because the word 'g-d' means a lot of things to a lot of people, and especially on forums, it can mean some really negative things; as a Jew I'm not supposed to deface or erase His name in any form, and by talking about g-d on this forum I may cause people to deface His name when responding to my posts, so, just like I don't talk about people in a light which may cause others to disrepect them and their name, I don't talk about g-d in a way which would disrespect Him or His name. I'm still talking about g-d, you say, and so I'm allowing people to disrespect his name? In writing g-d, or the full name, I am referring to everyone else's conception of who/what g-d is, (it's like how you capitalise names like Grandad, Mother etc when you're talking about a specific one- I'm using g-d instead of a capiatlised full word to dissassociate the specific jewish g-d from the general conception of any g-d) in this way I am being respectful to all g-ds, and all beliefs, rather than assuming everyone believes in my g-d, or has my faith, nor am I contributing to or destroying (or letting anyone else, should they reply negatively to my posts in relation to g-d) the reputation of any g-d. It also reminds me just how much I don't know about who and what everything is, so it humbles me (believe it or not! My posts here seem bossy and know-it-allish to me).

Are people so ignorant they jump to conclusions? Lets avoid that in our next posts, shall we

 

thanx disarm, I didn't know why you did that. Now I do.

if I write g d I usually am refering to a swear that those two letters are the initials of. gosh darn, or something.

 

:Hit's hard sometimes cause I'm not supposed to say stuff like 'oh my g-d' at all, and i hate saying sh*t and f*ck unless I'm in pain or drunk (lol) so I kinda ran out of things to say... so i say jeebus like homer did on the simpsons, then everyone who knows that episode laughs and says something like it. It brings people together, i tell ya

 

I can understand the respect thing. My own relationship with Spirit gives me a feeling that words and swears aren't that big a deal. Sticks and stones kinda, sort of like Spirit has a thick skin and can forgive even the vilest swears. I sure hope so, cuz I've said em.
Gee whiz used to get me in trouble, but jiminey cricket was okay, and golly gee willikers too. I have many memories of grade 3 to 5 in a christian school, where geez was strap material.

 

can we turn the question around and ask why people believe in the existence of a deity. Because I base belief in perceptions of which I have had experience, I will hold off making that claim until I have had such an experience. Until then the question is more in the realm of the imagination and I would rather work on such things as washing the dishes and taking out the garbage. Many people though are fascinated by gods,devils and the spector of such deep questions concerning the existence of those things. Any good catholic would spend his last dollar on buying a piece of the cross before feeding his hungry children.

 

see the thread, "reasons for belief".

 

St Francis of Assisi was hoeing his garden when a student asked, "what would you do if you knew this was your last day on earth?" He replied, " Hoe my garden."
I admit a certain yen for more spiritual knowledge, yet also know that it is a selfish pursuit, and the better use of my time is doing the things you mention.

Gandhi, "Whatever you do in life will seem insignificant, but it is very important that you do it anyway."

 

The reason I don't believe is because if you look at the history of all major religions, they've done so much killing, so much hatred and bigotry. It proves that religion cannot possibly be a force for good when it's done more evil than good. I think it's all a money scam based on the human propensity for group delusion. And they all have a proven history of lying and trying to suppress knowledge. Some of the most lying, backstabbing, twisted, perverted violent scumbags I've ever personally known have been devout Christians.
Personally, I doubt there's a god because it's hard to believe that a universe and species this badly-run can have any sentient force directing it. I don't think it's impossible God exists, but I'm sure not counting on it.

 

Christianity has done as much charity work as any religion, and likely more than any other one, which you seem to ignore. It proves humans are weak, and give in to temptation when given free will, not what you say it proves.
I may be wrong, but I feel it is used by evil folk for evil goals, but itself is a force for good, like all religions. The texts of all of them teach us things that are good, love your enemy, dont be greedy, dont lie, steal, kill, etc.
Sounds good to me. I feel it has done far more good than evil, though I would never choose one faith over another. They are all okay by me.
I have met jerks of all types.
God is not directing it, if he exists, he is just the creator, and we are free to f up all we want. I believe Spirit is real, and that it is known what our choices are going to be before we are even born, though those choices are ours to make.

 

When one/entity person can direct the actions of others , this frightens me.

The pope can make/change religous doctrine and can just sweep whatever he wants under the carpet thats a bit wrong (understatement).

Maybe a reason why people turn to more 'mystical' faiths such as Budhism...

2. God’s or Nature's Laws?
For forever and a day, humans have attributed their existence to the work of an intelligent designer, a godhead who created all life. All religions tell some sort of creation story that addresses the question of why we are here. Scientists, on the other hand, have traditionally been concerned with the ‘how’ rather than the ‘why’ of things. They might ask, not why we were created, but how we came to be. That is an altogether easier question for science to tackle.
According to the scientists’ version of creation, we ultimately owe our existence to the fundamental laws of nature. In many ways, cosmologists see this as rather a simple affair. From a few natural laws and an inert gas, comes all the diversity and complexity of life, the universe and everything.

Indeed, Professor John Conway of Princeton University showed beyond doubt that simple rules can create complex patterns. He invented a simple mathematical game consisting of a grid of squares, which he called Life. Some squares are filled with counters, whose fate is determined by three basic rules that correspond to birth, life and death. When this game is run on a computer, what transpires is a pattern that looks as though it were purposeful enough to have been designed.

‘My little Life game is surprising because from the simple rules one wouldn’t expect to find things that move in a sort of purposeful manner. It mimics life to that tiny extent. Like a little mini universe,’ says Conway.

The notion that the universe was created with purpose begins to disintegrate in the face of a greater understanding about how complex systems can emerge from randomness. And they do so with no further input than a few simple rules.



http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/W/what_we_still_dont_know/arewereal2.html

I am feeling sleepy very sleepy.
Basicaly i think it is all a waste of time (time another abstract concept i suppose zzzzzzz) .

 

Should the idea that the universe possesses intent frighten you if at has given rise to you?

The pope is but a small part of the picture. You could consider that it is essential to life for there to be opposing forces. What would be the fun of doing something if it did not have a positive goal? How could you have a positive goal if you did not have forces opposed to it and at the same time forces to reach it? Orgasms are worthwhile goals to pursue, and the fact that certain forces oppose or delay them adds to the gratification of attaining them. To look at religion in a positive light might help us understand that opposition to an action is not a bad thing, but instead it is part of attaining that thing- it is essential to our enjoyment of that thing. It's cold outside and I am enjoying being inside because it is warm.

Religious pressure not to do something can be looked at as a positive force that adds to the pleasure of doing that very thing. To focus upon anything as negative is to deny the good in the opposing pressure. Without friction there would be no sex. To recognize what is good for you- the pressure that opposes you, is to see the good in this opposition (even if this pressure is a thought that conflicts with your own thoughts). Ultimately, the opposing forces should guide you to realizing that your opposition to them is as good for them as they are for you. Doesn't it strengthen your own identity to be assailed by opposing forces that you know are wrong (for you!), and still be able to be yourself and have happiness in this fact?

It was designed. If there was no intent to do anything, it (the game) would never have been made. The idea of a perfect God encapsulates the essence of this game- that the universe is perfect in that simple rules give rise to a variety of life (and rules).

A simple set of rules that creates a complex system can arise from a complex system (a human named John Conway). This in no way indicates a lack of intent.

 

Kharakov is correct.

Science cannot prove that a purposful god does not exist.

But if purpose is tentatively accepted, it can make statements concerning the nature of that purpose.

 

Originally Posted by matthew
When one/entity person can direct the actions of others , this frightens me.

It should, but I hear people admit that they are being controlled by others many times a day. 'he made me made', 'she drove me nuts', 'he depressed me', etc. I find it interesting that it is often the person's enemies that have this control, and ability to direct their emotions. The last people one would want controlling them.
It is so common, also frightening, and no one seems to notice.
If god is real, my take is that we have free will, so we are not directed.
I believe, but just exactly what it is I believe is still being decided.