Race, class and above all power.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Walk

    You seem to be saying you agree and then end by saying you disagree?

    I’d say it was history driven – it’s not really case specific but accumulative in nature – as one person said here one death was just the straw that broke the camel’s back because the camel was carrying so much historical baggage.
     
  2. walkoflife

    walkoflife Some Assembly Required Super Moderator

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    I agree with the data you presented. I agree with your explanation of the data.

    I disagree that African Americans have been the only ones to have it rough over the years, and in fact, data shows that Daniel Shaver should have been the straw that broke that back, too. But you only hear or see #blacklivesmatter - not #endpoliceviolence.
     
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  3. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Wrat

    The thing is that advantage bring advantages and disadvantage bring with it disadvantages.

    The biggest impact on a person life can be to whom they are born but nobody can choose to be born into advantage or disadvantage
     
  4. wrat

    wrat Member

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    I disagree, its all about choice those with advantages can make bad choices thus becoming less advantaged and vice versa, nature vs nurture, NOTE I did not say it was easy and could things be better YES however its always down to choices
     
  5. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Walk

    So you agree with what I’ve said - you accept that there is a class element – but you want to carry on arguing the point – because?

    Who?

    In historical terms black Americans would seem to be up there – I mean I’ve talk about others Native Americans for example but the particular straw this time was a black man.

    I'm all for ending police violence... so i'm unsure why you seem pissed at me for some reason?
     
  6. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Wrat

    To repeat - advantage brings advantages and disadvantage bring with it disadvantages – one of those advantages of the advantaged is that they are more likely to weather a bad choice than someone that is disadvantaged.

    And again I ask - can a child choose who its parents are going to be?

    You are bring up the same arguments as an old friend of mine called individual maybe you should read this thread –

    Effort or Luck?
     
  7. walkoflife

    walkoflife Some Assembly Required Super Moderator

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    You are overly sensitive for no reason. I am not "pissed" to the slightest degree.

    You have an opinion of the overall picture, and I have mine.

    Just leave it at that.

    If you are not going to welcome others' constructive input without thinking they are "pissed", you should not post statements or create threads that would garner such.
     
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  8. wrat

    wrat Member

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    Of course not.... BUT as I said before for some life is harder and they have more obstacles HOWEVER its still about choice...Life is not fair
     
  9. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    walk

    LOL look man I’m happy to debate a point but sorry you asked me something about class you seem to accept and agree with my explanation, but then you went off about me only seeming to want to hear or see #blacklivesmatter - not #endpoliceviolence.

    Which was strange as if seemed to have nothing to do with your enquiry about class and had me wondering why you thought them mutually expulsive
     
  10. walkoflife

    walkoflife Some Assembly Required Super Moderator

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    I am going to exit this debate now. Thank you for your thoughts and ideas.
     
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  11. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Wrat

    Did you read the thread, you are still bringing up the same arguments Individual did in the thread –

    Effort or Luck?

    One of those advantages of the advantaged is that it opens up more opportunities and number of choices.

    The thing is that a society can try and reduce the number of obstacles in the way of the disadvantaged; it is possible to make life fairer.

    Too often those that say ‘life’s not fair’ are those that don’t want to help make it fairer
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  12. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Walk

    OK man but I’d still not sure what your argument was there at the end?
     
  13. wrat

    wrat Member

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    And if I disagree in wanting to make life fairer? some of the greatest accomplishments come from strife and struggle.. who decides what's fair or who is disadvantaged?
    is mother nature fair? does the prey lament being the prey?

    As I said before sometimes people need a lift absolutely BUT a culture of dependence and entitlement nah not into it, participation trophies nope earn it

    I did read the first few pages but 25 nah not that interesting.
     
  14. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    wrat

    Why would you not want a fairer society? It made society fairer to give women the vote would you have opposed that? It made society fairer to stop slavery would you have opposed that?

    Would you have opposed the American war of independence as many said it was fairer to have independence than been ruled from Britain?

    And many, many more from being well financed and resourced.

    Was slavery fair, were slaves disadvantaged?

    You do know Social Darwinism is crap don’t you?

    Humans basically stopped talking to ‘mother nature’ when we started making tools.

    Do animals write constitutions and bills of rights? Do animals have unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

    Again this is the ‘deserving and undeserving’ argument and it perpetuates the myth of dependence and entitlement, the disadvantaged are by their nature scroungers and loafers and so cannot be given any real help because they would do nothing.The advantaged are hard workjing and diligent and so should hold on to all the advanageds they can.

    If we cannot choose into what position we are born, how did the baby born into advantage earn that advantage?

    I always find it strange that some types of right wingers imply that others are lazy and are not willing to put in the work but when it comes to it they are the ones that are too lazy to put in the effort.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  15. wrat

    wrat Member

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    and round and round it goes you have your opinions I have mine , I have no desire for some fictional utopia where everything is fair and all is decided, and you never answered WHO DECIDES WHATS FAIR?
    implying that im lazy because I dont wish to read 25 pages of an old thread thats a win, thats all for now I dont think this will go anywhere
     
    walkoflife likes this.
  16. granite45

    granite45 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Nobody could even begin to claim that the distribution of wealth and power in American is even the slighted bit equitable. There are about 2 light years of space between a totally equitable society and what we have now. The status quo keeps million and million of Americans deprived of opportunity and stuck in a cycle of poverty. Moreover the wealthy are not satisfied and use their power to accumulate more....a classic definition of addiction. This is not a stable situation and the explosion of anger in the protests is not going away anytime soon.
     
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  17. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Wrat

    Things can improve - societies can become fairer – for example once there was slavery now there isn’t once women didn’t have the vote now they do.

    Was it utopian for black people to wish slavery didn’t exist was it utopian for women to wish they had the vote? Is it utopian to hope for an end to institutional racism?

    Why shouldn’t such inequality have been tackled then and why should inequality not be tackled in the future?

    As to who decides well ask yourself which side would you have been on? Would you have opposed the ending of slavery or fought for it? Would you have wanted women to have the vote or been against it?

    In your opinion what was fairer?
     
  18. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Wrat

    But the thing is I can back up what I’m saying with rational argument, while you have nothing – I was asking you to read the thread to save us all from reading stuff that had already been covered and already shown to be deeply flawed or not ready stand up to scrutiny.

    Like the madness of Social Darwinism for example.

    I hoped that unlike Independent (and other right wingers) you might be able to address the criticism – I was clearly mistaken.

    I don’t feel like I’ve won, i actually feel like I’ve lost because once again I can’t understand why people like you push ideas you seem unable to defend from just the slightest of scrutiny.

    Why do you hold on to ideas that must realise are so flawed?
     
  19. wrat

    wrat Member

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    you avoided the direct question again WHO DECIDES WHATS FAIR?
     
  20. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Walk

    Can you explain why you like wrats post?
     

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