Question

I know theists who are very kind and intelligent, and they do give a crap. Maybe they are rare, but I don't think so. I agree that many, a great many, theists, appear to be too lazy to question the churches authority in spiritual matters, and would rather have their decisions made for them. They pay a heavy price in freedom for that illusory security. But I believe that there are theists who are theists because they have had an experience that undeniably convinced them in the existence of a God. I feel I am in no position to contradict them, as I have no way of knowing what they experienced, and will not deny them without strong proof that they are in error.

 

Oh, I definately also know theists who are very kind and intelligent. Remember Jatom? He was around here for a while. I lost an argument to him. That doesn't seem to happen too often, but ... when it does, heck, I have to give the guy some honest credit.

And, I do honestly believe that people like Jatom are rare among theists. Very rare. You might disagree, but ... well we can agree to disagree on that point.

I understand that people claim that they've had religious experiences. Maybe it was something that happened that was too coincidental to be a coincidence (does that make sense? =P), maybe they actually talked to God.

All I know is, I have smoked some herbs, and felt the presence of a being that felt even more real than all of reality. However, that does not mean I believe in that being. That's because, just because we experience a sensation or perception that something is real, that doesn't mean that what was experienced was real. Dreams are also of that nature; so it's not like intoxicating herbs are the only way to have experiences that feel real but aren't. And then there's the whole "Matrix" aspect that is a possibility (but isn't probable, at least I don't consider it probable).

That's the wisdom that many agnostics and atheists are trying to share with theists, but the vast majority just call us b.s.'ers.

I might normally agree with you, that what we said about theists is a bit harsh, but ... well, let me rephrase what I said, so I can be politically correct:

That's why: An incredibly large number of theists are too stupid and too heartless to actually give a crap. To them, as long as you're a non-believer, you're still a worthless turd that's going to hell.

So, indeed, not all theists fall into this category. But, I'm willing to wager that a number greater than 98% of them do fall into that category. Suffice it to say; the vast majority.

So now, when 98% out of about 5 billion theists worldwide, consistantly don't care enough to separate "atheist" from "agnostic," or perhaps even don't have the intelligence to do so ... I don't think what I said is very harsh.

Discrimination by race is racism, discrimination by sex is sexism ... but it doesn't sound right to follow suit and call descrimination by belief "theism." But in reality, that's what it is. Agnostics and atheists are being discriminated against, because over half the world tends to just label us as "non-believers" and go on with their lives.

 

Blackguard..

Maybe a tad.

Occam has met several religious people who's stance is that all of us
have an inherent right to believe what we want.
They follow the path of christ in a rational way..They simply 'do'
as they believe christ would have done.
And state that it is not their bussiness to question others beliefs.

However several is a small number compared to the thousands of
other religious people occam has met.
Which empirically supports hikaru's position.

Hikaru..

Tend to agree with you but would throw in another factor.

Occam thinks a LARGE portion of those that say they believe in
god [of one of the organised religions].
Do so to conform.
How many do you think if asked privately would
say 'i dont know' [if there is a god]

Occam thinks the number of people who truely believe
in a religious god or any god is less than half of humanity.

The other half are agnostic...with a small percentage 'saying'
they are athiests.

Probabillity is high that many of the young ones that have come
to this form with dogma straight from sunday school.
Have rethought their path to allow other options to understanding.
The intent of many here..has been fullfilled.

Dont worry...occam has seen the puzzled look in many an eye
at the answer 'no, agnostic'.
Now...occam does not say that...
As a bit of fun...when people ask.
Are you religious?
No
You dont believe in god?
insufficent data
....???
Then you do believe in god?
insufficient data.
...????what do you mean insufficient data?
Exactly that.
?about what???
god
?..um..so that makes you...what?
a rational human being.

Occam

 

Yeah, but people usually, when they're sure they had an experiance, didn't do drugs. But were in a normal state.

 

True, but ... also, not always true.

Take Dr. Shullgin, reknowned psychoactive scientist for example. One of his students asked him to explain why a certain substance was psychoactive in humans. Dr. Shullgin asked the student to go with him to the lab, which he did. There, he had a filled container of an unlabelled gas, which he asked the student to put his head into and take a few deep breaths. The student did that, and then noted that he felt a powerful onset similar to that of LSD. The gas in question? None other than carbon dioxide, which makes up something like 25% of the air, does it not?

Similarly, oxygen will do the same. Even nitrogen. Personally, I think the only reason we think the way we do is because we've been breathing the same air for so long, that we eventually learned how to push the psychoactive side-effects aside and tolerate them.

Also, a lot of those "death bed" sights of Jesus, white lights, and other oddities ... can also be explained. The cerebral cortex of the brain produces DMT during near-death experiences. As anti-climactic as it is, when you see Jesus just before you die, it's not because he's actually there; you're just trippin', in a manner of speaking.

So I'm not entirely convinced that people are always in a "normal" state. There are too many chemicals that flow throughout the body on an everyday basis (seratonin, adrenaline, God knows what else).

Anyway, that's my opinion.

 

Makes sense, but here's the twist: I've seen people HEALED through Christ, I'm not talking spiritual (well, that too...) , but physical healing. Some people I know of went to a gospel event (one of them was deaf), DEAF her
whole life, she comes back, and guess what? - the deafness was gone. It was a miraculous healing. <
This happened more than once. And usually takes place in penticostal, non-dinominational, and charasmatic catholic churches, but is extremely common on special events.

Many people that I know of were healed physicly and got saved, some of my friends know of people who got healed of AIDS and cancer ( I know some of those), and got saved.

It happens all the time...

 

That's really, REALLY interesting, that your friend's deafness was somehow cured at church. I've got a friend who is deaf, and I'm under the impression that most deaf people are deaf because the hairs on the inside of their ears are destroyed, and that those hairs don't ever regrow. So ... thats, admittedly, really odd.

As for AIDS and cancer, both of those problems can be tackled by marijuana. Not that marijuana isn't a miracle.

Realistically, though, there are ways to rid yourself of AIDS and cancer, just through detoxification and strict deiting to monitor exactly what you eat. Not that this has anything to do with it happening in church, but ...

Regardless, it's real interesting.

 

I believe Yehoshua Bar Joseph did live in the holy land 2000 years ago.
I believe guardian angels have saved my life at least 5 times.
I believe prayer works miracles.
I believe in miracles.
I believe in magic.
I'll never learn sorcery, or put hexes or curses, or spells on people.
I don't want my future told to me by fortune tellers.
I believe in the person, not the faith, nationality, ethnicity, gender, age, and all are just as worthy of heaven.
I believe in life after death.
I don't believe in heaven and hell.
I believe that the blood washing away my sins is nonsensical, and if it is true, I still would decline, as I wouldn't pass the buck off on him for my sinse, I'll pay for my own sins.
I believe that anyone and everyone who is good is on the right path, for them.
I believe no one can tell me what path I should be on.
I don't know about God, and it is not worth wondering about to me.

 

Truth

Occam believes Y B Joseph did live in palestine 2k years ago
Occam believes pure dumb luck has allowed occam to survive
several major 'impacts with reality'
Occam believes planning results in the favoured outcome.
Occam believes in what exists..
Occam believes in neither magic, or sorcery or conventional fortune tellers.
Occam believes in humanity...Of all flavours.
Occam believes life lives...and there is no life in death.
Death is not something that happens to you, it is the end of all happening.
Occam believes his sins are but the errors he has made.
Based on his code of morals/ethics.
Occam believes any who seek understanding. Are fullfilling the purpose
their existance has enabled.

Occam believes that all of us..we together. As brothers and sisters.
Can make our race. Now young and vulnerable.
Functionally Immortal.
And each of us can be what ever we wish to be.
All we have to do..
Is understand reality.
Occam has faith..yes that elusive thing..But not the faith of religion.
Based as it is in words and promises.
Occam has faith in US.
For we..in all human experience.
Are the ONLY THING THAT CHANGES REALITY to its planed desire

Occam

 

Well, if someone ever tips you off where to go to do that ... let me know!

Love potion, here I come! =D Hahaha.

This is one thing that has been troubling me for a long time, BlackGuard! The Bible makes it look brave to be cowardly and let Jesus wash away your sins so that you don't have to reap what you sow.

That is ridiculous. I am a man like all others. If I sow a bad crop ... I intend to reap its yield.

Likewise, it is cowardly to just accept what the Bible has said, and it is most respectful to God to know that you have sinned, and pay for your own sins. Look at Martin Luther King, Jr. Through nonviolent direct action, he was imprisoned without a just cause, but he accepted his punishment without resisting, in order to demonstrate that something is wrong.

I'd rather burn in hell for my sins, and know that I'm taking some of the evil out of the world, than let it reside there and be saved in heaven.

 

God makes the hairs grow, as for an unbeliever, I believe one should go to A pentacostal healing service or something of that kind.
*Usually* non-believers may be healed on special occasions, like crusades, moderrn ones, where a pasture(usually non-denominational) of some sort spreads the Gospel at an arena, park, or whereever many people can meet (since there are usually masses). After they get healed, they usually end up
believing. My friend's seen a baby's leg pop out (it was retarded) in a church, I think, -or was it one of her friends? Not sure...

Anyways, have a good day! Nice that you think it's interesting...