Psychedelic Bump XXI

Now that you mention it, tns did "used" to post here....

What happened to him?

 

I *might* have the possibility to try 2C-N in a near future yay! Anybody has valuable info or experiences to share about this compound?

 

SO today was the day appointed for the Mushroom + Mescaline trip. The plan fell through but MAN I still want to do some drugs today. I have a setting (friend's house) and I am real tempted to just go ahead and eat those psych's today. But I would rather wait for a more ideal setting and really do it right.

I think I might go over to my friend's today and eat some kratom and smoke some weed. Gonna try for a nice high dose of both and see where the day can take me. Not the same as a trip, I'll agree. But could still be pretty "out there".

 

That's a fairly exotic psychedelic but that's mostly because it's a bit of a dud :\

Someone on bluelight said it felt like a low dose of 2c-c, which is already a very mild one. If you can get it though I would still get it just for curiosity's sake It should be yellow colored.

 

Writer, in response to what you said in the other thread, about being able to die from DOX:

Yes, but it's pretty unlikely, they've been around a half century and there's only a handful of associated deaths, at most. They seem to have a much larger margin of safety than nbome, the issues come from more predictable vasoconstriction, rather than random seizures and random death.

I think that DOX can be used safely, with no particular danger or cause for worry, it's probably about as safe as most OTC cold meds (not the recreational use of OTC meds, of course it's much safer than that ). But nbome, while they may be usable with reasonable safety and are interesting things, do not seem to have the same margin of safety, dose-wise. That is, if you take a few DOX hits, you might be in a bad spot and need medical attention, but you'll probably be okay.... if you take a few NBOME hits, you might be in a bad spot, and could easily seize and choke on your own vomit, or something horrible like that.

I guess I'm saying, nbome seems to be like the alcohol of psychedelics..... eww. (and, I've never taken them, and would love to. But you get what I mean)

DOM, and to some degree in the more modern era, other DOXs, have been widely distributed as acid, in a similar fashion to how nbome is now, and possibly early on, mixed with acid. Many thousands of people took massive doses of DOM when the hells angels did some stupid shit and sold a bunch of "more is better" doses of "STP", and then it appeared, allegedly, in a lot more stuff, like the infamous "brown acid", at least according to skip (and it's accepted that something was off with the stuff, so it would make sense). These people pretty much ALL took way more than a proper dose, and we know psychedelic freakouts where common, but there just wasn't a lot of this nbome style crap going on, it was harmless enough that the government still had to make up "glass of orange juice" bullshit, instead of just say hey, you'll seize and die.

*edit* another thing lending safety to DOX, even when mis-represented as LSD, is that there are very telltale signs, like onset, and for someone who has had real LSD, the effects are quite distinguishable, in terms of headspace and frame of mind/thought processes, visuals, etc.

 

"and for someone who has had real LSD, the effects are quite distinguishable, in terms of headspace and frame of mind/thought processes, visuals, etc."

you could say the same about 25x-nbome

 

Well, as I say, I've never had them, so I don't know. But I've heard them, from before they where widely popular or known, described as being very similar to LSD in visual terms.

DOX, if you painted a picture of what you saw at a given time, and then painted a picture of what you saw at a given time on LSD, and showed a tripper those pictures, they could probably easily identify the substance that they'd taken. (post-trip, of course)

If that makes sense.

I read some people say nbome and LSD are indistinguishable, and some people say they're quite different. But I've never heard anyone who's knowingly taken both say that DOX and LSD are particularly similar, beyond that they both make you think differently and see shit.

In short, DOX is like being in a world built out of jolly rancher. A high quality computer rendering designed to look like DOX visuals would make an excellent jolly rancher commercial.

 

RooR I agree with you. I offhandedly mentioned DOx and NBOME in the same sentence as possible fatal adulterants/mocks of LSD but the safety profiles do seem to be drastically different. Hells Angels were distributing 20mg doses of DOM and I think there were only a handful of deaths, if that. Meanwhile, people are seizing so violently on 4mg of NBOME that they break both arms, have kidney and liver failures, and straight up die, on under 5mg.

I like your description of DOx visuals. I've only had one experience with this class, ~1mg DOC, which was sublime, and the visuals were indeed like a Winamp fractal visualization. I am very surprised to hear people say NBOME is indistinguishable from LSD . . . I wouldn't even say they are close, I mean no closer than something like 2c-b is to LSD. Perhaps they are comparing only the visuals . . . I find it hard to tease apart the visual effects by themselves, but certainly the gestalt effect of NBOME is nowhere near LSD's effects, counting things like body load, thought process alteration, and just the overall "flavour" of the compounds. I do however need to continue exploring the NBOMEs, and look forward to my next trial which will be 25C on it's own.

They are definitely worth trying RooR, you might not love them but that doesn't mean they are crap. I don't love 2c-i or 2c-e, or even particularly like them that much, yet they are staples of the RC world, even if only for availability/economic reasons, and I can still appreciate their innate qualities even as they collect dust on my shelf.

I believe most NBOME deaths are from 25i. I've been doing research recently and come to see that a growing trend in anecdotal reports is that 25c is generally a "better" one, in terms of "feeling dirty" and having less negative effects, as well as more desirable psychedelic effects. Of course there are people who feel otherwise, but what I just discovered today is that 25c-NBOME is a partial 5HT2a receptor agonist, while 25i-NBOME is a FULL agonist. Full agonism vs. partial agonism is a HUGE difference in the safety margin of drugs, and it's best shown in the difference between THC and various JWH synthetic cannabinoids, where THC is completely non-toxic, even in huge doses, while synthetic cannabinoids can cause medical emergencies and, very commonly, high undesired states of intoxication characterized by intense dysphoria, paranoia, and nausea.



And this just blew my mind . . .

Does this mean if someone is overdosing on 25i-NBOME, then emergency administration of 25C-NBOME/LSD/most psychedelics would actually HELP the individual? This is insane! Someone having a really bad time on too much AM2201 should smoke a bowl of cannabis? This has to be looked into more . . . maybe paramedics should be carrying emergency ampules of LSD for serotonergic RC overdoses (or more seriously, a non-psychoactive partial agonist of that site. I hope an expert can chime in on this!)

 

So then, would that infer that 25i/c together would be considerably safer than 25i? Or, simply lessen intensity?
Or am I even reading your post correctly?

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

That would be cool, if there is a non-active chemical (mightn't one of the inactive or nearly inactive LSD analogues do it?) that could be admistered to help nbome (and various other psychedelic) overdoses.

In fact, couldn't it be a non-sedative trip abortificant, if taken with any active seratonergic?

On the other hand, it might do very little, and simply bind to unbound receptors, which should be easier, until you have reached the saturation dose (presumably, very high) of one of the chemicals. And other things like vasoconstriction happen with the inactive ones, too.

Of course, the harm-increase oriented peoples would never let that happen....

I don't currently have the drug-related time to not only take nbome, but go out and hunt them down.... but I would like to take them. On the other hand, as you say, people are having organ failure and such from just a few mg, I'm sort of hesitant to take them without knowing the exact things happening, and even if I knew, it seems to be one of those things where the risks may outweigh the benefits, as we do have LSD and such.

And yeah, the descriptions that I've read saying it's like LSD have generally been talking about the visual aspect, though one of the first I read when someone here first mentioned it and I had to go off HF to find it, was for something like 250mcg intranasal in water, and reported a very worthwhile trip akin to a few normal hits of WoW. I was very impressed, and instantly wanted some.... maybe it's just that a normal dose of these things is actually a tremendous overdose? Is anyone even measuring it in mcg doses anymore?

 

You are thinking of Bromo-LSD which is being researched for use in treating cluster headaches I believe (its in the Nat Geo documentary).

So the partial agonist doesn't just fill in the receptors that the full agonist didn't reach; when both are present, and partial agonist actually reverses its action and becomes a partial ANTagonist, competes for receptor sites against the full agonist, diminishing its effects through both competing for sites and having the reverse effect on that receptor subtype in the brain. From this wiki page I do indeed infer that 25i+25c is safer than 25c alone, insofar as full receptor binding harm is concerned.

I really wish I knew more of the nitty gritty about neurology :drool5:

Note that this wouldn't necessarily result in less subjective effects . . . I mean, in the case of AM-2201 + THC, I would think that smoking one, and then smoking the other, would get you MUCH higher than smoking one alone. But what smoking both might do is make it less likely to die from say, stopped breathing or cardiac arrest due to AM-2201 full agonism of cannabinoid sites. So this would only be a life saver, not a mind saver I definitely do not conclude that if I am tripping too hard on 25i, I should eat a 10 strip of LSD! :daisy: but if I was going into convulsions off 25i, then maybe, that LSD strip might stop the convulsions (it would compete against AND reverse the action of the 25i).

edit: yeah doses for NBOME seem to be increasing. I hear some regulars on BL saying their sweet spot is 2mg+ O_O intranasal also requires less of a dose though. Actually I think there have been more deaths from intranasal than any other ROA. I don't think it's necessary or smart to use that route, when this stuff is so highly bucally/orally active. Ketamine/DPT/Cocaine, that's one thing, those are very ineffective orally, and shine nasally, but NBOME seems like a mouth trip to me

edit again: posted a thread on BL to see if anybody there has ideas. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...anism-of-Full-Agonist?p=11367337#post11367337

Also I misread that wikipedia article . . . I guess you're right RooR and it just competes, it doesn't compete and reverse its action magically, it's just that the net effect of a partial agonist being introduced to a brain with full agonists floating around is that they compete, and since one of the competitors is only a partial, the net result is less full agonism.

 

I'm in the middle of those views. Speaking solely in regards to visuals, I found some aspects of 25i-nbome reminiscent of LSD particularly the distorting of objects and wavy-ness of it. I found it more resembling LSD than 2ci at least. Some of the visuals felt very distinguishable, particularly at the higher dose I took, much more mechanical type visuals and structures.

I find the nbome's sort of an interesting excercise in psychedelia from my personal socioloical perspective, however I'd find it more interesting if there weren't overdoses in the wake of these experiences. It's interesting to see how the reactions of these chemicals have varied, interesting how quickly many seemed to jump to notoriously more dangerous/potent Routes to adminster these drugs such as nasal once they heard they are not orally active. Interesting to hear the more divided opinions on their power to produce worthwhile psychedelic experiences or not with no Pikhal or established literature to suggest their safety and effects. I think some of those overdoses could have been avoided, however no doubt they are very powerful chems and given the fact they need to be taken alternate Routes of Administration other than oral is pretty sketch.

25b-Nbome is considered a partial agonist at the 5ht2a receptor as well according to wiki and the mix of 25b + 25i is linked to one of the nbome associated deaths. Furthermore, All these chems likely interact with several different receptor sites and different neurotransmitters, there is no reason to believe mixing them makes them any safer.

 

I don't see that the existence of work by shulgin makes or breaks the safety of a chemical. I think by now there's more info on nbomes than there is on many shulgin chems, though I COULD be wrong.

I think it's that powders that must be measured with scales, in the many mg but non-eyeballable range, that then must be put in capsules and would probably be taken in a party setting, do not lend themselves well to clandestine commercialization. It happens, but it's usually by people in the know, marketed to people in the know. nbomes fit on blotter, and are sold as acid, and there's lots of lore about acid and all the crazy shit that happens on it, many (stupid) people take it honestly thinking it is some sort of crazy drain cleaner shit that poisons them into seeing shit. So, you can get away with selling nbomes as acid, to young or stupid or reckless drug users, at large, while many would be put off by even the comeup on most 2c's or similar chems. I had a friend, who generally would drink/smoke but nothing else, who enjoyed 2cb, but said he probably wouldn't do it again, just because of the rough comeup. But somehow I expect he'd be fine with the danger of nbome, if he was going to take acid, because it's what he would expect of acid because of DEA lore.

 

I'd agree that the work of Shulgin doesn't necessarily dictate a chemical's safety profile, however I do think there is a perceived sense of safety when a chemical is in an established book such as Pikhal/Tikhal. The shift of emphasis I've seen from many placing blame on the individual(s) of some of the past overdoses, to many placing blame on the chemical(s) with the Nbome kind of leads me to that view.

 

Ehh to a degree, I'd agree.

But to a degree, that's because he carefully laid out the worthwhileness or lack thereof of different chemicals, and people just don't bother with the less worthwhile ones. And they get hit when the more worthwhile ones get banned or scheduled, by way of similarity.

It's not just the safety profile of dosages, but of overdose effects, too. People have survived really massive doses of 2c's, and while even doubling or tripling a dose might cause death with those, it's still dozens or hundreds of milligrams more. However, with nbomes, 2mg more can be the difference between a good time, and a violent painful death. Even if it's only doubling the dose, it's still also only 2mg more, if you see how I'm looking at it. And it doesn't seem to be as treatable in overdose, it just totally breaks your body/organs, as at least one member HERE has reported nearly doing, you can die out of the blue, in a matter of seconds, if you seize and choke with no one to help you, even if it's a minor seizure, and these seem to happen at reasonably common/low doses. With say, DOB, I would simply not be worried about that happpening on a normal dose, and if somehow I took several doses, like if I thought it was acid, I would do what I needed to get help from friends or family, and just have them watch me, or know that they might get an emergency call.... which would be shitty, because people, pretty much universally, don't understand the care and feeding of trippers.... but in the long run I would anticipate little mental or physical danger.

Of the documented deaths from DOB, the most recent and verifiable happened after something like 70+mg each, and one person lived (with amputations I think).... I think they thought it was coke or some other "party drug" or something, and snorted a bunch.... but that would be like taking at least several sheets, if it was layed on blotter... and one of them actually survived. Whereas a strip of nbome would kill you, with little question.

By comparison, you could accidentally take a strip, you could not accidentally chew up sheets.

 

writer, i read on bluelight that 25c...(i'm not sure of the units of measurement, but..) hits the receptors with something like 88% efficiency, while 25i is at ~92%.
so the line drawn btwn them is quite arbitrary. 25i might bind tighter, but only by a smidge. and the effective dose of 25c is lower

 

I think this may be a bit of an overstatement. We've seen plenty of people here taking massive doses of these chems without serious consequences.

I know people who've been fooled by nbome and taken 10-15 strong hits. The reports in those cases weren't overtly pleasant, and suggested some potential danger, but overall none of these people died or had any need to be hospitalized.

Certainly there may be a rather high risk with nbome, but to suggest that taking a strip means almost certain death just isn't true.

Edit: Off topic, but I just went back and watched Dead Poet's Society for the first time in years. Never ceases to amaze.

 

Okay, you're right, I'm exaggerating.

But it seems pretty bad.... a few mg can cause deadly symptoms, and a blotter seems to generally be dosed at 1+mg.

For me the scary thing isn't a massive overdose and death from actual toxicity or anything, it's what nearly happened to, I think, jaredfelix? Seizure that would otherwise not be particularly lethal, combined with something like choking, either on vomit or something else, or just some sort of accident, I don't know..... you could have one and fall down some stairs, etc. It brings a totally different level of lack of self control to the whole thing. Things that on acid are really pretty safe, and generic, and have been enjoyed by millions of people with no problem, like say a walk in the woods, could lead to random death because of this unpredictability issue with nbome.

To me the seizure thing, even at levels below "overdose", speaks of some sort of underlying problem with the chemical and how it works in the brain. Something that is not good at all. And the seizure and blackout/hypnotized state thing is even worse.

 

Yes however I've never had any problems with the nbomes whatsoever. The seizure I had was certainly from something totally different, maybe even more obscure or new then the nbome. Ive enjoyed all the nbomes so much! the only negative effect being a headache afterwords. You are making some good points though ROoR . Also consider the fact that I've had 4 seizures in my life, first one was before I had even smoked pot or did any drugs. So maybe with a predisposal I have more odds of something going wrong. The last trip I described certainly felt toxic as I was awake for almost three days, then had the seizure which was more painful then any I've had before.