Prove to me the bible is real...

i was just trying to lighten up the subject ... but the bible has been changed period. if you feel it you know it believe in what you feel...

 

There is no contradiction here.
Both agree there was 3,300

Kings Author adds (not contradicts) another 300 men in his description.

We might be annoyed the author does not tell us why he chose to include an extra 300 men but its obvious he was being more specific.

In all likelyhood, the author is doing the exact same thing we do today (and all forces do) - including the number of Reservists.

BTW.. your own military will officially report 'two' different numbers too.
One is the actual number of forces.
The other is the same number PLUS Reservists.

Even if Kings is including something other than Reservists - you still do not have a contradiction.

(interestingly.. if there were NOT any reservists - you would have 3,300 shrinking every week due to death rates and illness. with those extra 300 men to be continously taken up.. you see how Chronicles becomes a truly reliable figure. At all times it would be 3,300)

Ok.. so thats not a contradiction but simply one author being more 'technical' and 'specific'.

What else do we have......

This one should be removed from the Muslim list of problems because its very obvious the word is being used in the same sense we say 'Sons of Ishmael' even though they can be distant 'Grand' Sons.

Absalom/Abishalom
|
Tamar-----Uriel
|
Rehoboam-----Maachah/Michaiah
|
Abijah

This is not a contradiction and its not even a small problem.
Its very common language and terminology of that days Hebrews.

Its interesting to me when the 'best' contradiction that can be found is nothing more than a number discrepancy.

I mean - its nothing that changes the intended thought, meaning and principle of the paragraph, sentence or word.

In anycase... this is, at worst a typo.

Why dont I count a typo as a contradiction?

Because NO EDITOR, COURT, LEGISLATOR, AUTHORITY, SCIENTIST or ANYBODY on the planet will count a TYPO as a Contradiction.

By definition, by common-sense and by all accounts nobody (including anyone in this forum including Cabdirazz) counts a typo as a contradiction)

So I wont either.

So the best critics can do is find ONE or maybe TWO missing letters or mispellings or a numeral in THOUSANDS of examples of text, numbers and lettering.

If thats the best you can do - then fall down in amazement at the Bibles accuracy - not even your local newspaper can put out an edition without a handful of typos.

Incidently, the fact the Bible does have different authors who can verify against each other and therefore catch-out any Typos is just another reason why its trustworthy imo.

More Detailed explanation for why a Typo does not count as a contradiction:

There are two possible solutions to this problem.
To begin with, scholars who have looked at these passages have concluded that the 36th year of Asa should be calculated from the withdrawal of the 10 tribes from Judah and Benjamin which brought about the division of the country into Judah and Israel.
If we look at it from this perspective, the 36th year of the divided monarchy would be in the 16th year of Asa.
This is supported by the Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel, as well as contemporary records, which follow this convention.

Keil and Delitzsch (pp. 366-367) preferred to regard the number 36 in 2 Chronicles 16:1 and the number 35 in 15:19 as a copyist's error for 16 and 15, respectively. This problem is similar to question numbers five and six above.
In this case, however, the numbers were written using Hebrew alphabetical type (rather than the Egyptian multiple stroke type used in the Elephantine Papyri, referred to in questions 5 and 6).
It is therefore quite possible that the number 16 could quite easily be confused with 36. The reason for this is that up through the seventh century BC the letter yod (10) greatly resembled the letter lamed (30), except for two tiny strokes attached to the left of the main vertical strokes.
It required only a smudge from excessive wear on this scroll-column to result in making the yod look like a lamed.
It is possible that this error occurred first in the earlier passage, in 2 Chronicles 15:19 (with its 35 wrongly copied from an original 15); then to make it consistent in 16:1, the same scribe (or perhaps a later one) concluded that 16 must be an error for 36 and changed it accordingly on his copy.

 

"Later, there were people who would show me what appeared to be contradictions in the Bible, yet these were not contradictions at all, but only a lack of research on the part of those that said these things."

Read the rest.....

http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof/id8.html

 

1. Impossible.
2. I can't.
3. No can do.
4. God won't let me.
5. Nobody has ever done it.
6. Free will depends on God's mystery.
7. I couldn't be bothered to do it.
8. Why don't you try to prove it for yourself?

 

I'll explain this, so even you can understand it. You claim you want a good debate, you can't provide me with facts. When I provide you with the truth and FACTS you just ignore them. However, you sure can sling the crap. Your petty insults don't bother me either. My facts sure do get you all upset though. If think you are right why do you get all upset? Also I'm only providing you with these facts, because you asked. I don't need them to love God. I was called by God, not called because I know the Bible. I live for Him, the Bible is a guide which He has provided for all of us. And yes Jesus even died for you. It is funny how you admitted yourself that you don't know the Bible, but you want to debate. I will tell you I know ther Bible in and out. Maybe you should debate something you know.



So before I begin this discussion of the authority of the Bible, let me first quote the words of Jesus found in John 15:18. Jesus warns his disciples about the attitude the world will have toward those who follow Him. Jesus says, 'If the world hates you, keep in mind it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own As it is you do not belong to the world. That is why the world hates you. 1 Peter 5:8 states, "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."

What is vital to understand from these passages is the attitude of the world toward God. The world is in rebellion against God, and worldly people under the influence of Satan seek to destroy your faith.

In the light of the times we live in, it is important for Christians not only know what they believe but also, why they believe what they believe.

I once heard an astounding statistic. It indicated that 80 percent of the college-bound students who profess to be Christians leave for school and return home no longer believing in Christ. One of the reasons is this: when a student sits in class and hears the professor discredit the Bible, the student doesn't have a defense and is easily deceived into believing the Bible is no longer credible. This happens too often because Christians know what they believe, but not why they believe it.

In my experience, there is no book that is criticized and attacked more than the Bible. Many intelligent scholars have written books that attempt to discredit the authority of the Bible. This is one of Satan's goals: to get man to doubt the Word of God.

To counter this attack we will study some of the evidence in the case proving the authority and divine origin of the Bible. This knowledge will enable us to make a solid defense of the faith when we are attacked.

There has not been in the history of man a book that has rocked the world as has the Bible. The impact it has made is phenomenal. Some hail the Bible as the Word of God; others criticize and condemn it. With the Bible facing such great opposition today, and with many other works claiming to be the "word of God," how do we know the Bible is the true Word of God? Let us take a look at the evidence.

Internal Evidence

The evidence for the authority of the Bible falls into two major categories: internal evidence and external evidence. I mean by internal evidence, the evidence that is found within the Bible itself. By external evidence, I mean evidence that is found outside the Bible, such as archaeology, science, philosophy, and ancient manuscripts. Let us first consider the former, the internal evidences.


Self-proclamation

The first fact is that the Bible claims to be the Word of God. The authors knew they were writing the words of God, even though they often did not fully understand what they were writing. 2 Timothy 3:16 states, "All scripture is inspired by God." 2 Peter 1:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Jesus himself viewed the Old Testament as authoritative and quoted from it throughout his ministry.

Holy Spirit

Second, the Holy Spirit confirms to us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 states, "But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth." The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures the believer that the Bible is God's Word.

Transforming Ability

Third, we have evidence concerning the transforming ability of the Bible. Hebrews 4:12 says, "The word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit." Romans 12:2 says, "And be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." The Word of God and the Spirit of God actually transforms the lives of people. The Bible has changed the lives of murderers, drug addicts, top government officials, business people, and students, to name just a few people from every walk of life who have been transformed by the Bible. No other book can make such a claim. This is because the Bible is not a mere book on good living but is literally packed with power. It is the Word of God with the power to change lives.

These are only three internal evidences supporting the authority of the Bible. These of course are not the best arguments to use in a debate, but they are evidence. In the next section, we will study what I believe is the best internal argument.

Unity

We have studied three internal evidences that support the authority and divine inspiration of the Bible. In this section, we will study the fourth internal evidence: the unity of the Bible.

The Bible covers hundreds of topics, yet it does not contradict itself. It remains united in its theme. "Well, what's so amazing about that?" you may ask. Consider these facts. First, the Bible was written over a span of fifteen hundred years. Second, it was written by more than forty men from every walk of life. For example, Moses was educated in Egypt and became a prophet over Israel. Peter was a simple fisherman, Solomon was a king, Luke was a doctor, Amos was a shepherd, and Matthew was a tax collector. All the writers were of vastly different occupations and backgrounds.

Third, it was written in many different places. The Bible was written on three different continents: Asia, Africa, and Europe. Moses wrote in the desert of Sinai, Paul wrote in a prison in Rome, Daniel wrote in exile in Babylon, and Ezra wrote in the ruined city of Jerusalem.



Fourth, it was written under many different circumstances. David wrote during a time of war, Jeremiah wrote at the sorrowful time of Israel's downfall, Peter wrote while Israel was under Roman domination, and Joshua wrote while invading the land of Canaan.

Fifth, the writers had different purposes for writing. Isaiah wrote to warn Israel of God's coming judgment on their sin, Matthew wrote to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, Zechariah wrote to encourage a disheartened Israel who had returned from Babylonian exile, and Paul wrote addressing problems in different Asian and European churches.

If we put all these factors together, the Bible was written over fifteen hundred years, by forty different authors, at different places, under various circumstances, and addressing a multitude of issues. It is amazing that with such diversity, there is such unity in the Bible. That unity is organized around one theme: God's redemption of man and all of creation. Hundreds of controversial subjects are addressed and yet the writers do not contradict each other. The Bible is an incredible document.

Let me offer you a good illustration from apologist Josh McDowell. Take ten contemporary authors and ask them to write their viewpoints on one controversial subject. Would they all agree? No, we would have disagreements from one author to another. Now look at the authorship of the Bible. All these authors, from a span of fifteen hundred years, wrote on many controversial subjects, and they do not contradict one another.(1)

It seems one author guided these writers through the whole process: the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 2:21 states, "No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." The unity of the Bible is just one more amazing proof of the divine inspiration and authority of the Bible.

External Evidence

In our study on the authority of the Bible, we have studied the internal evidences, which are found within the Bible itself. Except for the unity of the Bible, most of these arguments are subjective in nature. Now we will study the external evidences of the Bible, that is, evidences found outside the Bible.


Indestructibility

The first external evidence is the indestructibility of the Bible. The Bible is the most well-known book in the history of the world, and no book has been attacked more than it. Skeptics have tried to destroy the authority of the Bible for the last eighteen hundred years. It has undergone every kind of scrutiny possible from archaeology, science, philosophy, and computers. Yet, despite all these attacks, the Bible proves itself to be true again and again. Each time the skeptics have been wrong, and the Bible has proven itself true. Just the fact that the Bible has remained steadfast in its authority after two thousand years is another piece of evidence supporting its divine origin.

Archaeology

The second source of external evidence comes from archaeology. Middle Eastern archaeological investigations have proven the Bible to be true and unerringly accurate in its historical descriptions. Nelson Glueck, a renowned Jewish archaeologist, states, "No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.''(2)

Dr. William Albright, who was not a friend of Christianity and was probably the foremost authority in Middle East archaeology in his time, said this about the Bible: "There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of the Old Testament."(3)

Here are a couple of examples of the historical accuracy of the Bible. A good example is found in Genesis 14. The Bible speaks of Abraham's victory over Chedorlaomer and five Mesopotamian kings. For years, the critics stated that these accounts were fictitious and many people discredited the Bible. In the 1960s, however, the Ebla tablets were discovered in northern Syria. The Ebla kingdom was a powerful kingdom in the twentieth century B.C. The Ebla tablets are records of its history. Thousands of tablets have been discovered. What is important is that many of these tablets make a reference to all five cities of the plain proving the Genesis 14 account to be accurate.(4)

Another example is the story of Jericho recorded in the book of Joshua. For years skeptics thought the story of the falling walls of Jericho was a myth. However, in the 1930s, Dr. John Garstang made a remarkable discovery. He states, "As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely, the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins of the city." This is remarkable because city walls fall inward, not outward.(5)

The March 5, 1990 issue of Time magazine featured an article called, "Score One For the Bible." In it, archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon claimed Jericho's walls had fallen suddenly. Many scholars feel this was caused by an earthquake which may also explain the damming of the Jordan. Additionally, grain was discovered, which shows the city was conquered quickly. This find adds credence to the biblical account. Further study by Brian Wood found the date of the fall of Jericho to match the Bible's date.(6)

Here are just two great examples of archaeology authenticating the historical reliability of the Bible. No book is as ancient, and at the same time, as convincingly accurate as the Bible.

Indestructibility and archaeology are two external evidences for the Bible.

Prophecy

There are many more external evidences for the Bible, but I'll just cover one more: evidence from prophecy. The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies which have come to pass. No book in history has ever come close to the Bible when it comes to fulfillment of prophecy.

The prophecies in the Bible are very specific and accurate. Nostradamus claims to have made hundreds of prophecies that have come true, but if you read his prophecies, you will find them to be vague and unclear. His symbols and language can be taken to mean a number of historical events. Unlike many such prophecies, biblical prophecy is very specific.

Here are some examples. In Ezekiel 26, which was written in 587 B.C., Ezekiel prophesies that the mighty city of Tyre would be destroyed. Tyre was made up of two parts, a mainland port city and an island city half a mile off shore. Ezekiel predicted mainland Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, many nations would fight against her, the debris of the city would be thrown into the ocean, the city would never be found again, and fishermen would come there to lay their nets.

In 573 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre. Many of the refugees of the city sailed to the island and the island city of Tyre remained a powerful city. In 333 B.C., however, Alexander the Great laid siege to Tyre. Using the rubble of mainland Tyre, he built a causeway to the island city of Tyre. He then captured and completely destroyed the city.



Today, Tyre is a small fishing town where fishing boats come to rest and fisherman spread their nets. The great ancient city of Tyre to this day lies buried in ruins exactly as prophesied. If we were to calculate the odds of this event happening by chance, the figures would be astronomical. No, it was not by coincidence.(7)

Here's another example. There are over three hundred prophecies made of Jesus in the Old Testament. Prophecies such as His place of birth, how he would die, His rejection by the nation of Israel, and so on. All these prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus ever came to earth. Because of the accuracy of the prophecies, many skeptics have believed that they must have been written after 70 A.D.--after the birth and death of Jesus, and the destruction of Jerusalem. They have thereby tried to deny that they are even prophecies.


No book can match the Bible when it comes to prophecy. Understand that I have only touched the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds of additional proofs for the Bible, yet I have only mentioned a few. I hope this study has aroused your interest to further study the Word of God! I hope this clears everything up.

 

Again, I refuse to talk with you guys if you won't open your eyes and see what we're trying to tell you.. the bible is FULL of contradictions.. You're fooling yourself...

 

Since we are not hypocrites and wont pretend a Typo is a contradiction only when it applies to the Bible - here we see a real full-fledged Typo.

Consider this - we know its a Typo because there ARE more than one account and author.

This is a good thing.

But what Im about to say will surprise you - this Typo is absolutely devastating to Cabdirazz very premise.

What?

Well consider this - that one Typo (which changes absolutely nothing about the meaning and thought being communicated)..
.. this one Typo has been known about forever!

But wait a minute... you state that the words of the Bible have been changed by man!?

Yet, this Typo has never been changed by ANY translators over the centuries.

Wouldnt this be the very FIRST thing they would 'alter' or 'rewrite'.

This is an amazing example of just how sacred the scribes treated the texts.

I LOVE this Typo!

He is refering to Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight

[Please remember - we are not debating whether we believe what Luke believes - we are simply pointing out that Luke is not contradicting himself]

If it helps -Jehoiakim was Jeconiah's father and Josiah was his grandfather.

This should also be removed from the list of problems because its very simple.

Hmmm.. two census's.. with differing figures?

How can that be possible?

(already most readers have the obvious answer)

Guess what.. they were taken at different times.

Some critics have taken issue with the 'Tally' both give.
Honestly.. it seems to be simply a way of speech - not much different than we say '40,000' protesters rallied today'
Well.. of course that is not an exact number - many are coming, going.. but we like to make it simple by rounding it off to a 'metaphorical number' which is accurate 'overall' but not at any given moment.

This is sad when a critic is grasping at what tint a writer uses to describe the same colour.
Sorry but this one is lame.

Both.
Look - Just because an already very specific description does not give you every other specific moment, mixture and step of the events (and how each were made) - does not count as a contradiction or even a 'problem'.

Neither does the text tell us how many minutes passed between times they tried to get him to drink stuff - or how big the servings were, or what they might have also put in ... this is not a 'problem' - its called efficient writing which doesnt feel the need to explain every irrelevant detail.


Now this is where I have to complain Cabdirazz.
Its intellectually 'easy' to simple fire off every 'question' and ask the Christian to do all the research, reply's and work.

This Tsunami approach may 'look' convincing but its an indication you dont 'really' want answers.

If you did - you would post one good question - then allow that to be answered - and be prepared to reply to their response.

Having said that - I do believe you are more sincere than AmandaN (who I suspect is really a Christian trying to challenge other Christians with a 'Character' they have created)

 

Please stick to your promise then.. and shut up for a while.

Adults are in the middle of real discussion, cold hard facts and truly breaking down these 'contradictions' right before your eyes.

.... but ya.. please keep your promise to stop talking to us.
Thanks

 

ROFL!!! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day... I'm very anti-christian.. I'm anti-religion all togther, but have a special HATE spot for christanity... and you know what, it's people like you that fuel my fire of hate.

 

You're so full of yourself... and so wrong... I feel sorry for you. If you refuse to accept what's in front of you in plain black and white then you're obviously not stable enough to have this conversation.

"oh no, that's not a contradiction, that's a typo" - what a crock of shit...

But hey, you keep up the good work fooling yourself... i'll be sat over here, watchnig, and laughing.

(yes, this will be my last post in this thread for a while, i'm goning to watch you "adults" have fun).

 

Anyway, by Mother Teresa
​

​

People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind people may accuse you of selfish ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough.
Give the world the best you've got anyway.

You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway.



​

​

​

 

Wow.... that's exactly like me

 

Please explain why you think a Typo should qualify as a contradiction.

Please be as smug as possible as you point out where any expert (in any field) in any culture, in all the world, through all time considers a Typo to be called a contradiction?

Really Amanda.. rub that crock of shit in my face - and lets see why you think a Typo should count as a contradiction?

Let me have it .. this is your big chance to really 'get those Christians'!?

No?

Nothing?

Thats because even stupid people know full well that a Typo is NOT the same as a contradiction.

Mind you.. stupid people cant figure out why a Typo deliberately left in the Bible for 20+ centuries actually ruins their theory of the 'Manipulated Text'.

 

Too bad you really suck at it.

[Seriously..lame.. but keep on trying.. you have lots of room for 'improvement'!!]

 

ok, total confusion has now drawn me back in, I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight without an explination... say what?

I have no idea what you just said, or what you think I am... so please, explain it to me? You're obviously the expert on me as well as everyone else in this forum... so please? who am I?? what am I?

(PS, you misunderstood what I was saying about the typo.. I disagree that it's a typo... that's just your excuse to try and cover up the fact it's a contradiction... oh, and i'm STILL waiting for your comments on my mathew vs luke problem, or is that a typo too?)

(PPS, i admit that I'm not the best person to have a debate with about the bible as I don't know it as well as some people here (such as BG13, who's read three diffrent bibles, and yet still seems to be on my side of the fence)... but the research I have done have lead me to two conclusions... the fact that the bible is the word of man, not god.. and that the bible is full of contradictions... fair point, i'm no expert, and i can't list them out... but they are there.)

 

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=853570&postcount=48 I think you missed this post of scientific facts.

 

half of those are based on how you interpret it
example: the "roundness of the earth" one says circle not sphere
also, there is no way to translate the bible into english perfectly, those examples might not even be what was meant to be said

 

Epiphany, many of those are also used to make credible the Qu'ran....

 

as i've already said, a few correct things does not make the rest of it correct... we've already proven that the bible has contradictions in it...

Let me give you an example... lets say i was keeping a diary, and in this diary i listed out everything that happened to me every day... within this i put in references to real people, places and events.. but what about if, within this diary i start talking about, oh i dunno, dragons.. now we all know that dragons don't exist... and yet, at least 1 in every 4 entries in my diary has a reference to a dragon.

Now is my diary telling the truth or a lie? Well, it's doing both... much like the bible.

If the bible was the word of god, it would be infallable, it would be perfect, and it would be readily available in every past, current and future language ever concieved...

jesus was sent to the earth as the human incarnation of god to spead his message to love and peace to the whole world... so when did he get to endland? and when was he in russia? what about china and japan? oh, and if jesus is the son of god, the human form of god, then he must also be able to speak in many diffrent languages, right? after all, this message is very important to everyone.

meh

 

PS, i invite you all to come kiss hank's ass:

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26798