Prove to me the bible is real...

Things may seem real to a schizophrenic, but that doesn't mean they are real.

 

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now? Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." -John Lennon

I agree. If you see it, it is true for you. Whether or not you are a schizo, if you see something and i don't, it may not be true for me, but it is for you. If I wasnt there, I may believe it never happened, but I dont know that for a fact. I have seen enough paranormal stuff, I believe others until they give me reason not to. Saying they saw a dragon is not enough reason for me. I havent seen one. I doubt they exist, but since I know I could be wrong, and they have little reson to lie, I believe them.

 

Hehe I don't know why I say some of the things I say, in my worldview everything exists... It's just infinite you know. But I do enjoy sometimes these conversations/debates/arguements... It can be fun.

 

What a load of bullcrap... there are MANY contradictions in the bible, and if you can't see them, then you're blind... Here is a link to just one example:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/flynn_25_1.htm

 

OK I think its time to put the questioner to the test ,,,

Amanda N, since its so obvious to you where the contradictions are between Matthew and Luke...
..Please, help out us blind ones and post this contradiction.

(Humour those of us who cant possibly understand the article you linked to)

You sound like you really understand that article and can spot the 'contradictions' easily - so please give us one example?

 

One very good example is josephs linage dating to King David... according to Matthew there are 28 generations, but Luke lists 41... And yet another thing, if jesus is the son of god, and was born to the VIRGIN mary (meaning joseph never got his end away with her), why do these people even bother highlighting this linage? If jesus was born of a virgin, then he's not related to king david at all.

Now please, stop trying to test me, and open your eyes...

 

PS, it was interesting how you tried to change the focus of the conversation there.... how you knew exactly what that article said, and how it went against what you said, so instead you some how try and focus the topic onto me...

Why not, rather than try and change the topic, actully address the problem... you said the bible has no contradictions.. I've proven to you that it does... what now? care to change your statement?

 

I thought the article was pretty straight forward

 

when i said "faith without proof" i didn't mean folowwing the heard and do what is told when nothing is in font of you...that is just stupid....thats why i put in the last part...

 

I take this as a challenge. Note that I do believe that the bible was sent down from God but that it became changed, altered and corrupted by the hands of men, just as Moses(peace be upon him) warned the jews in Deuteronomy 31:25-29

Evidence for this can be found from many different aspects which I would like to discuss such as:
a)contridictions b)differences c) Notes from bible itself d) lost books d) Gods word or mans.
First of all, is God perfect, I say yes Allah(may he be exalted) is perfect, should not his scripture also be perfect, I say yes, then why do we find stuff like this in the bible?

a)
Solomon's overseers
550 in I Kings 9:23
250 in II Chron 8:10


The mother of Abijah:
Maachah the daughter of Absalom 2 Chron 9:20

Michaiah the daughter of Uriel 2 Chron 13:2


When did Baasha die?
26th year of the reign of Asa I Kings 16:6-8

36th year of the reign of Asa I 2 Chron 16:1


How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
22 in 2 Kings 8:26

42 in 2 Chron 22:2



24.46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day
Where in the OT is this written?

Who was Josiah's successor?
Jehoahaz - 2 Chron 36:1

Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11

The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah.


What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
scarlet - Matthew 27:28

purple John 19:2


What did they give him to drink?
vinegar - Matthew 27:34

wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23


How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
SA2 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

SA2 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:


How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
KI2 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

CH2 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.


The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.


The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) is mentioned. Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus(PBUH). The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father


How many stalls and horsemen?
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem


There are sites that expose hundreds(even thousands) of contridictions from the bible but some of them are taken out context or could be explained yet some can not be explained.

b) Lets say I would want to read the bible and study it, which one should I chose, which version is the word of God sense they are different?

KJV Mt 25:13 Ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
NAS You do not know the day or the hour.
NIV You do not know the day nor the hour.

KJV Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost . NIV:OMITTED
NAS:footnote casts doubt
NWT: OMITTED

1Pe 1:22 KVJ Ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit…
NAS you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth…
NIV Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls…
NWT Now that you have purified your souls by your obedience to the truth

Further more in the bible we find something which some christians scholars call heretic and syntopic gospels. They call the 3 gospels excluding Johns gospel for the Syntopic gospels sense they are pretty alike and Johns Gospel for the heretic one. For instance, In John, Jesus(may peace be upon him) speaks much about him self and he speak in long dialouges while in the Syntopic he speaks short and not much of him self, in the syntopic gospel, throwing out the money changers was the last part of his mission while John state that it was the first. In (S) he speaks much of the oppressed and their rights and he does a lot of exorcism while (H) he does not nor does he talk much about the oppressed and the poor. There are alot more difference between these two which show that this cannot be the complete word of Allah(may he be exalted) sense it´s obvious that this is different styles from different people.

c) Further more, the NIV which is loved my many christians has this in its notes:
"Although there is no direct internal evidence of authorship, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1488)"


"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

The author's name does not appear in the book, but much unmistakable evidence points to Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1529)"
The writer of this letter(hebrews) does not identify himself, but he was obviously well known to the original recipients.


"....Unlike most NT letters, 1 John does not tell us who its author is. The earliest identification of him comes from the church fathers...(From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1904)"

"The letter is difficult to date with precision....(From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1905)"

"Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:8).....In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. He suggested that the author was a certain John the Presbyter, whose name appears elsewhere in ancient writings. Although many today follow Dionysius in his view of authorship, the external evidence seems overwhelmingly supportive of the traditional view. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1922)"

It is not necessary, however, to claim that Numbers came from Moses' hand complete and in final form. Portions of the book were probably added by scribes or editors from later periods of Israel's history. For example, the protestation of the humility of Moses (12:3) would hardly be convincing if it came from his own mouth. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 183)"

"The book itself testifies that, for the most part, Moses wrote it (1:5; 31:9,22,24), and other OT books agree (1Ki 2:3, 8:53; 2ki 14:6; 18:12)--though the preamble (1:1-5) may have been written by someone else, and the report of Moses' death (ch.34) was almost certainly written by someone else. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 240)"

"It seems safe to conclude that the book, at least in its early form, dates from the beginning of the monarchy. Some think that Samuel may have had a hand in shaping or compiling the materials of the book(the book of samuel), but in fact we are unsure who the final author or editor was. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 286)"

"Although, according to tradition, Samuel wrote the book(the book of judges), authorship is actually uncertain."
"The date of the composition is also unknown, but it was undoubtedly during the monarchy."

(From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322).

The author is unknown(the book of ruth). Jewish tradition points to Samuel, but it is unlikely that he is the author because the mention of David (4:17,22) implies a later date. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 360)"

Many questions have arisen pertaining to the literary character, authorship and date of 1,2 Samuel."
"Who the author was cannot be known with certainty since the book itself gives no indication of his identity."

(From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 368).


There is little conclusive evidence as to the identity of the author of 1,2 Kings."
"Whoever the author was, it is clear that he was familiar with the book of Deuteronomy."

(From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459).


According to ancient Jewish tradition, Ezra wrote Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah (see Introduction to Ezra: Literary Form and Authorship), but this cannot be established with certainty. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 569)"

"Although we do not know who wrote the book of Esther, from internal evidence it is possible to make some inferences about the author and the date of composition. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 707)"

d) Lets not forget about the lost books of the bible, where are they?
NUMBERS 21:14
"Wherefore it is said in the BOOK OF THE WARS OF THE LORD, What He did in the Red Sea, and in the brooks of Arnon..."

Has any one during an Archeological dig(to prove the Bible) found this little gem?

JOSHUA10:13
"...Is this not written in the BOOK OF JASHER?"

Does any one know where this book is?

I KINGS 11:41
"And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are not written in the BOOK OF THE ACTS OF SOLOMON?"

Could someone let me know where this book is?

1 CHRONICLES 29:29
"Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written a BOOK OF SAMUEL THE SEER, and in the BOOK OF NATHAN THE PROPHET, and in the BOOK OF GAD THE SEER,.."

Does anyone know where I may find these original books?

d) I dare christians to tell me that this is the word of God or the word of Paul, and do you follow this verse:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Timothy 2:12)"

 

Well, Quetzalcoatl and northernlehigh97, what do you have to say to that?

 

You keep talking about the bible making references to real places and events.. well of course.. it's easy enough to write about an event, and fit it into your own belief system, if you write about it AFTER the end has happened...

A lot of people seem to point to the great flood as proof of the bibles authenticity... as it's desribed by other cultures, and indeed archological evidence... and so I'm not saying that the great flood never happened, what I am saying (in regard to that event specificlly) is that *something* did happen (don't ask me what, i'm not sure, but maybe the red or dead sea overflowing), and so this was picked up upon, and written about, and exzagrated, and given meaning (i.e. god caused it)...

I have no doubt that if a 3rd testament of the bible was to be produced, it would have references to the boxing day asian disaster, and no doubt there would be a story of how it killed all the sinners, and how god spared the holy (and whatever else you want to make up)... oh, and it won't be 150 thousand (or whatever the most recent number is) it'll be closer to a million.. and it won't be just south asia, it'll be half the world.

The bible is, and forever will be mythology.. just because it references real places and events, that does not mean that it's all true... it's mythology, like any other culture has it's own mythology (romans, greeks, egyptions, norse, etc..)

 

well quoted cabdirazzaq...

 

Since you think the Bible is mythology, how do you explain all the findings that people find that relate to what happened in the Bible. The very first photo of Ron Wyatt's Noah's Ark site appeared in the September 5th, 1960 issue of LIFE magazine. The photo was taken by an ariel reconnaissance airplane in 1959 and caused quite a stir! A group of men from the United States went out to the site, but they came away perplexed about the site because they had expected to easily see evidence of a "giant wooden boat," not the mud and lava covered ruins that exist out there today! Ron had nothing to do with this 1960 trip -- he was only 26 years old when he saw the photo in LIFE magazine. Seventeen years passed, and Ron Wyatt was still deeply impressed that this site really was the actual remains of Noah's Ark. Ron made his very first trip out to investigate this site in 1977. Over the next 10 years Ron performed several tests upon the ancient formation, and many people within the Turkish government agreed with Ron's conclusions: ALL THE EVIDENCE POINTED TO THE FACT THAT THIS WAS THE REMAINS OF A GIANT BOAT ON THE SIDE OF A MOUNTAIN AT 6,300 FEET ABOVE SEA LEVEL, and that meant only one thing: It was Noah's Ark! Even Turkey's leading archaeologist, Dr. Ekrem Akurgal -- (a professed atheist!) -- agreed that it had to be Noah's Ark ! Now after you read all this I'm sure you will just come up with some off the wall response so I will give you even more evidence that the Bible is not mythology. Now as to the Red Sea crossing. The Red Sea crossing was crossed. Coral-covered chariot wheels have been found in the Gulf of Aqaba. Coral-covered human bones have also been found. Ron Wyatt's crossing site is located in the Gulf of Aqaba. There is only one place along the west coast of the Gulf of Aqaba that is big enough to hold 1-2 million people, and that is the beach at Nuweiba which is large enough to clearly be seen from outer space. When Ron went scuba diving at this location, he located a natural underwater landbridge that crossed the gulf and coral-covered chariot wheels and coral-covered skeletons. This is the very first time in human history that anyone has ever found the physical evidence to prove that the Exodus really happened! There has benn many other findings since then. I think this gave you enough proof. Ron Wyatt also found the Ark of the Covenant in a cave UNDER THE CRUCIFIXION SITE OF JESUS -- and when Christ died on the cross and the Roman centurion stabbed the Son of God in the side with his spear, the blood and water went down through the earthquake crack at the base of the cross AND CHRIST'S BLOOD WENT ONTO THE MERCY SEAT OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT. I could go on for hours proven that the Bible is the truth, but hopefully this is enough proof for you to realize that the Bible did happen. This is all from only one gentleman's Archaeological Research. But if need be I could provide many more findings and many more researchers facts that the Bible was indeed real. I don't think this is just a coincidence that these findings are exactly how the Bible said it happened.

 

I'm actully surprised that you've even bothered coming back here again, we've already wiped your face in the dirt regarding the whole "The bible has no contradictions" thing.. but you want more?

Now the fact of the matter is that I can't come up with any arguments based on what you've just said as I know nothing about these things... but if sounds to me like these findings are yet more intrepertation. The fact that all of these finding have come from one person makes them very suspect...

I'd not be surprised if this person went out looking for these things, and when he was not able to find them, he faked them... it's surely not been the first time someone has lied to get their way.

But that's unfair of me, like I said, I know nothing of these, and so I need to go away and study up on them.

again, tho, even if X Y and Z of the bible turn out to be true (like I've said, i believe there was a flood... i don't believe it was global, and I don't believe it was caused by god, but due to these being a flood, it's more than liekly that some people built boats), that still does not authenticate the rest of the text, as you've said, it was written by 40 diffrent people, and as I've already proven, it contradicts itself MANY MANY TIMES, so even if you're spot on once or twice, that means nothing for the rest of the bible.

(PS, people like to breath when they read... why not try breaking your posts up into paragraphs like mine, that way it's easier to read, and I don't go blue in the face - i had to read what you put three times because it's so hard to read).

 

We can all agree on one thing - Northerleigh needs to please use paragraphs!

While Amanda N has not come up with any alleged bible contradictions (though she seems to know MANY of them?).. I see Cabdirrazz has posted a few scriptures he has difficulty with.

With all due respect to the copied and pasted 'Muslim Apologetic' list - I have a practical problem with people who post the 'Overwhelming Wave' of points.

There are at least 30 different topics and of course, its easy for the critic to simply 'Hit' them all - while not having to provide thoughtful, studied replies.

Not surprisingly, a massive 'library' of books spanning most of human history and being translated from one language to another (where occasionally there are not 'word' for 'word' matches) - you will find some difficulties.

But Contradictions?

Lets take a look at this list:

 

I beg to differ: http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=864924&postcount=86

 

well give me a bible and i will throw it at you then tell me if it is real

 

Quetzalcoatl, seriosuly dude, give it up... we've proven to you that the bible is FULL of contradictions.. it's just YOU thhat's having trouble seeing them (and I'm not surprised, after all, you totally failed to see my post, so maybe you've got problem with your eyesight?).

 

I didn't ask if it was real, i asked if it was the word of god