Pro Hunt / Anti Hunt Debate (split from Toffbusters)

Fair point my friend, fair point....

So anyone need some advice on Hippo's cos I know loads about them, pretty much everything else would be bad advice...

 

Shame you weren't around when I was with my last girlfriend

 

Ok i meant what your talking about Dok' just being a little flippant.. i realise that just shouting like deranged school children does nothing .. I am just saying that their could be a more effective way of keeping every one happy .. you, the police, the hunt .
I realise the point your making (and the point of sabbing) is that fox hunting should be outlawed altogether and your demonstrating this fact.. Not the fact that they may not be working within the law (the current law being the wrong dicision , right ?)
Now the law has been changed , and probably will stay this way for a very long time, a more effective way of protesting or just protecting the foxes could be found . You say sabbing is effective .. but how long did it take for the law to be altered ?. Ultimatly your working on a outright ban and all the toffy nosed (though funny , a bit unfair ?) gits are not ?...Just trying to see a better way ?? But you want a outright ban the police don't neither do the hunt .. so ignore my bullshit

I don't believe this , for a start the animals are bred for experimentation so even native species would have no idea how to hunt and survive anyway. Nice rosey image though... Re-homed ? another rosey picture a bit of proof (and don't bite my head off please).

 

The point of sabbing wasn't to achieve a ban. It was too save foxes lives. In that regard it was a huge success.

So how do you explain the 'success' of mink released into the wild? Not that I'm advocating this. I think libertated animals should all be re-homed, which the vasy majority are.

Well I'm afraid I willbiteyour head off, because I'm getting extremely bored of arguing with people who don't have the first fucking clue what they're talking about. You really want to take the time to educate yourself before you waste everyone's time by forming an opinion. Re-homing is the usual practice in animal liberation groups. If you don't believe that, then I suggest you get off your arse and meet some of them.

Do you have the faintest idea how dumb your last statement is? Would you like me to produce signed documents from people who admit to homing illegally liberated animals?

 

Fair enough, as i don't now how 'extreme' you all are i won't make groundless accusations .. i will leave that alone.

I was talking about THe ALF not other organisation that liberate animal (and re-home them) that have no connection with this group ? Educate me then with a few organisations that do this please..

I missed your point , or you missed mine.. Capturing illegaly released animals is not what i am saying or what the ALF do.. are you saying you or others go around 'saving' released animals ... So people are one step behind the ALF and pick these animals up ?? i don't think so... if so this is now what i am asking you to show proof of (i have never read about this).. seems like the ALF should be working with people like yourself (though i don't actualy know what you get up too, this might help so as i don't jump to conclusions..you seem just to defend/explain actions rather than explain what yo do ? )

 

i have many videos of animal liberation if you'd like me to copy and send them to you matthew?

 

yes please ... or are you just trying to get my address , so you can drop shit in my letter box ?? .

 

hehehehe! meanie! ...information is the key to all we learn...make up your own mind on the information given

 

This pretty much demonstrates your ignorance on the subject. The ALF is not an 'organisation'. It's a name that any bunch of animal liberationsists who feel like using it pick up and apply as they see fit. It has no structure. It has no policies. It has no hierarchy. Therefore, talking about "The ALF" as though it was one coherent group is to completely fail to understand how the animal rights movement in this country is organised (or not!).

If you insist in talking about "the ALF", people using that banner have are constantly re-homing liberated animals. Just because you don't read about it in the Sun, it doesn't mean it isn't happening out there, Matthew.

What the fuck are you rambling on about? I honestly have no idea. You hardly make sense.

Look, it's this simple. People who liberate animals in this country (including people who call themselves 'the ALF') don't just turn animals loose into the wild. They re-home them. You can choose not to believe that if you want, but that would just make you a fucking moron. Stop asking other people who know what they're talking about for 'proof'. If you find it so difficult to believe people, then go and find out the facts for yourself.

 

Just occured to me how nice it would be if we took the time and effort that the animal liberationists do and rehomed the people we have supposedly"LIBERATED". How nice it would be if we made sure all the people in Iraq, Afghanistan etc were rehomed, looked after and given a better life...How nice it would be if we to were doing it for the right reasons...and that we really cared about the people we were liberating...Hmmm what a sobering thought....


Sorry to go off subject...

 

yeh, it would be lovely if we cared enough to look after all things living

 

FFS Dok' so what if i used the word organisation so fucking shoot me (waits for that comment to be the only fucking thing you pick out and answer :yeah sure matthew with pleasure ... duh).. call it groups call it a gathering of like minded fucking people... you have just picked on a small faux paux and not bothered to answer what i was asking. I used it in relation with the ALF twice (one of those times indirectly) ... should i call them what the FBI call them "domestic terrorist organization" . I don't trealy wish to bang on about this point though. I was asking for some infromation about groups/people/whatever the fuck you want to call yourself (or the people) that re house liberated animals .. it was not that friggin difficult a question to answer..

I was not insisting on calling them a organisation at all , like i said i metioned it twice , once directly and once indirectly ..So fucking what if i read the Sun .. i also read the Times The Mail The Gaurdian (paper i actualy buy rather than borrow) The Metro (free paper).. The Mirror .. what the fuck are you trying to imply .. well i know so don't bother answering that one.

What the fuck are you rambling on abot Dok' I am not choosing to believe anything . i am asking questions ... It seems like you don't want to taint any people or yourself with anything to do with the ALF . I never even hinted at that... I was talking about one thing and you twisted it to something else ... 'Go and find out the facts for myself' wtf. Why not just say Matthew i don't wish to tell you anything about what i do ? or give any useful information to you.. i would rather just patronise the fuck out of you .

When i get some decent information claire , i will make up my own mind

Just have to go through some of this i think ... not going to get a lot from Dok'

http://www.hounds.org.uk/

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/

 

It's got nothing to do with semantics. It's not simply your choice of words. Your entire argument presupposes that it's possible to refer to "the ALF" as an organised group. Which it isn't.

Well if you'd make it clear what the fuck you're asking, I might answer you!

You were asking for proof. Proof would mean names, addresses, examples. Given that rehousing animals that have been illegally obtained is presumably a criminal offence, proof's going to be a little thin on the ground, isn't it?

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

I've told you what happens to liberated animals. You've called this "a rosey picture", thereby implying that I'm lying. If you can't show a little respect to someone who happens to know what they're talking about, why should I waste my fucking time trying to inform you? Don't insult me and then whine about being patronised.

 

I was not argueing and it was not my arguement at all..

Well you seem to know what i am asking ... so now people that re home these animals, obtain them from people you don't condone
Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

Your a fucking joke Dok' .. i was not calling you a liar ... from my uneducated point of view i was saying it seemed a rosey picture.. i asked for a bit of info.. how fucking difficult is that ? even the fucking ALF post some info on what they do.. i don't need signed testimonies or anything like that, retard.

 

http://www.directaction.info/news_nov18_04.htm


So ALF provided the media with a tape of their recent "direct action" at the University of Iowa — which action resulted in the vandalization of lab equipment and the removal of several hundred lab animals, mainly rats and mice. But is ALF now guilty of a crime far more heinous than the one they're self-rightuously taking credit for?





Are they, in fact, guilty of mistreating and abusing — perhaps even engineering the demise of — the very animals they claim to have liberated?

University veterinarian Paul Cooper said the roughly 400 mice and rats an animal rights group claims it took from University of Iowa research labs and placed in homes are in great danger.

"This is a great risk, and it was obvious the people handling them had no knowledge of proper handling," Cooper said Tuesday. "It put these animals at a lot of risk."

Although he has yet to see the damage in Spence Laboratories and Seashore Hall, he has seen several minutes of a videotape sent to local media this week that documents the acts. He described the animals as "obviously stressed, nearly frantic" and dumped into large, plastic tubs topped with hard, plastic covers. . . .

From what he saw on the video, Cooper said the boxes the animals were carried in provided inadequate air supply and no visible access to water. The animals could have died from lack of oxygen and water, he said, or from being overcrowded in a small area that would cause the temperature of the area to rise significantly and rapidly. If loaded into a cold vehicle, the animals could become hypothermic, Cooper said.

One or two animals have been found loose without food or water and are under the care of UI animal care staff, he said.

Cooper added that animals used in UI research are bred and raised for research under strict controls of disease prevention. That means the rats and mice have not been exposed to typical rodent diseases, such as upper respiratory diseases or hepatitis-type viruses.



​

Hmmm. Well, in light of the self-incriminating evidence ALF provided, I guess I wonder how we can be assured that the valiant "liberators" provided adequate care for the animals they "liberated?"





Now, an e-mail received by the media, purportedly from the ALF, claims that the animals were checked by a vet and placed in loving homes:

"Our goal is total abolition of all animal exploitation, achieved in the short term by delivering the 401 animals from UI's chamber of hell," the e-mail said.

It said mice and rats taken in the attack were not released into the wild, but were examined and treated by a "sympathetic veterinarian" and placed into "loving homes."



​

Examined and treated by a "sympathetic vet," and placed into "loving homes" ...

Would the animals be kept imprisoned in cages in those loving homes, or allowed the run of the house so to speak? (I don't see how being caged squares with being "liberated.")

How can we, any of us, AR zealots of the PeTA ilk, or animal welfarists like myself, be sure that the "loving homes" are — well — loving homes?

We have only ALF's word for it that the animals are better off now than they were while passing their time in the University of Iowa's animal care facility! We certainly can't rule out the possibility that ALF delivered the animals to a fate far worse than the one they faced in their lab cages — and that possibility comes into particularly sharp relief given the animals' distress and the mishandling of them that Dr. Cooper observed on the ALF-provided tape.

I think ALF owes it to all of us, ALF supporters and opponents alike, to prove to us that the animals they stole are being properly cared for.

After all, wasn't the animals' welfare the rationale for the entire liberation enterprise?

Brian

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please don't delete this thread or lock it.. i was actualy being overtly rude for a reson.. to stop Dok going on for 10 pages and not saying much about anything at all..

he says things like this ?..

when he must know they also call themselves The Justice Department/Hunt Retribution Squad .

I am perfectly able to understand given information Dok' and am very willing to learn... try giving me some information , politely and reasonably...

 

not gonna delete or lock it....lets just keep to the issues though?...time out on the quarreling...or not... as the mood takes you both...cool

 

Rather a joke than an ignorant fuck who couldn't think his way out of a paper bag

Still, you refuted the explanation that I offered re: the re-homing of animals. By not accepting what I was saying as the truth, you called me a liar.

It's all you ever do, matthew. You refuse to believe anything anyone ever tells you that doesn't fit with your own prejudiced view, and then expect us to go hunting for the information to convince you with. Do it your fucking self.

You might want to check out where Iowa is on a world map. And you might then want to check out the bit where I explained to you that the ALF isn't an 'organisation'. Someone who chooses to call themselves the ALF in Iowa has nothing to do with other people who choose to call themselves the ALF in the UK.

So liberating animals from a research laboratory is somehow more threatening to their welfare than leaving them there? That's pretty poor reasoning even by your standards.

I think it's a bit more likely to be a loving home than a laboratory that breeds them for experimentation, don't you? Aside from which, what kind of people do you think home liberated animals? Hardly likely to be animal haters, are they? Honestly matthew, posting this sort of crap just makes you look ignorant. And maybe take the time to formulate some opinions of your own rather than posting links and articles all the time? I know it's time consuming, but it's the more intelligent option.

Look, how many small words would you like me to use to explain this to you? The ALF is not an 'organisation' any more than the hip forums are an organisation. Some people who are involved in actions which they perform under the banner of the ALF may very well participate in anti-hunt activities. That's because they're individuals. The fact remains though that the only real organised opposition in this country to hunting in the field is carried out by the hunt sabs.

 

I'd prefer it if it was your windpipe, but I guess it's a start, eh?

It adds up to the same thing. I know what I'm talking about. You refuse to believe me. Therefore you're effectively calling me a liar.

Did you actually read my last post?!? Let me explain it to you again:

"The ALF is not an 'organisation' any more than the hip forums are an organisation. Some people who are involved in actions which they perform under the banner of the ALF may very well participate in anti-hunt activities. That's because they're individuals. The fact remains though that the only real organised opposition in this country to hunting in the field is carried out by the hunt sabs."

Since when do web links confirm anything? This is half your problem, matthew. You find a link that captivates your attention and you somehow think that this constitutes proper evidence. People who re-home animals aren't in the habit of dedicating websites to their activities. They're just getting on with.... guess what? Saving animals' lives. Frankly, I couldn't give two fucks whether you believe it or not. I know damn well what goes on in the real world. If you don't choose to believe the facts, that's nobody's loss but your own.

Huh?

And again.... huh?

And once more..... huh?!? Firstly, I have no involvement with any illegal activities involving animal rights. If I did, I'd hardly be talking about it on the internet. Period.

Secondly, are you really so profoundly stupid as to believe that anyone involved in such activities would ever be having this conversation in the first place? Ooohhh.... you're 'not the police'. I'm sure that would be sufficent to convince every anarchist and animal libber to openly discuss their activities on a public fucking message board!!!

It's got nothing to do with anything being 'a bit iffy'. I have no desire to discuss my private life with you. Period. You can either accept the facts that I'm offering to you - that animals are re-homed with caring people - or you can continue in your ignorance by choosing to disbelieve people who have no reason to lie to you. If you want to carry on being ignorant, then please don't let me get in your way.

The world doesn't exist on the internet, matthew. If you want to learn something, get off your arse and go and find out about it in the real world.