post your most disturbing vegetarian facts!

AJ's hair never came back but he gained weight and thrived when he ate like a normal person.

 

Why the hell are you people arguing with this guy, he's obviously not properly educated about the subject. He's not even worth noticing here,

no offence, IronGoth, but i suggest you go read about the subject a little bit more in depth rather than base your knowledge on some guy you used to know in college back in 93.

Anyway,

Peace,

Angela

 

Yes, AIDS has a way of taking you out.
Technically what ended his life was a stroke, but the fact that he was battling AIDS had more to do with it than meat eating.

But go ahead, jump to conclusions. Whether you like what Byrnes said or not, check the FACTS referenced at the end. The myths of vegetarianism are... myths.

Eat what you like but that diet kills people all the time.

 

Hey, I have researched it. At great length.

I even tried vegetarianism and ended up feeling like a tank had rolled over me.
And yeah, I did it "properly".

 

look,

its been proven that vegetarians/vegans have a longer life spand, its also been proven they're less at risk for various illnesses, etc.

We do not need meat to survive, what we need is protein, etc, and protein can be found in more places than just meat. Its the same with any other essential nutrient that our body needs, suplements exist, and so do OTHER foods.

So i'll give you that not everyone can manage to live comfortably with a vegetarian diet, but it's surely not because the body was missing meat, its because the body was missing the right amount of protein, etc. If you eat properly and get a sufficiant amount of nutrients, you can live a perfectly healthy life, healthier than the average meat eater will.

 

Is that because of their diet or because of other lifestyle situations? For example, I suspect that a lower percentage of vegitarians smoke than omnivores. Are the health benifits you mentioned caused by the vegetarian diet or that vegetarians tend to be more health concsous(sp.) and aware of their bodies than omnivores (aka the general Safeway shopping public.)

 

This is another one I've heard. But be that as it may, it was partially at my doctors' suggestion that I first considered becoming vegetarian. From what I have found on my own, it seems that heart disease & stroke (both run in my family, thus the concern) are caused by hydrogenated fats AND cholesterols. One is animal, one is plant. The difference? You've got to alter the plant-matter to get hydrogenated fat, but animal-fat is naturally loaded with cholesterol.

So considering JUST the effects on arterial buildup, someone who eats only lean meats would be healthier than someone who eats "any old meat," and someone who eats no meats AND watches out for chemically altered fats as well ought to be the healthiest of all. No?
love,
mom

 

That's not true

In the scientific literature, there are surprisingly few studies done on vegetarian longevity. Russell Smith, PhD, in his massive review study on heart disease, showed that as animal product consumption increased among some study groups, death rates actually decreased! (79) Such results were not obtained among vegetarian subjects. For example, in a study published by Burr and Sweetnam in 1982, analysis of mortality data revealed that, although vegetarians had a slightly (.11%) lower rate of heart disease than non-vegetarians, the all-cause death rate was much higher for vegetarians (80).

It is usually claimed that meat-eating peoples have a short life span, but the Aborigines of Australia, who traditionally eat a diet rich in animal products, are known for their longevity (at least before colonization by Europeans). Within Aboriginal society, there is a special caste of the elderly (84). Obviously, if no old people existed, no such group would have existed. In his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Dr. Price has numerous photographs of elderly native peoples from around the world. Explorers such as Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported great longevity among the Innuit (again, before colonization). [85]

Similarly, the Russians of the Caucasus mountains live to great ages on a diet of fatty pork and whole raw milk products. The Hunzas, also known for their robust health and longevity, eat substantial portions of goat's milk which has a higher saturated fat content than cow's milk (86). In contrast, the largely vegetarian Hindus of southern India have the shortest life-spans in the world, partly because of a lack of food, but also because of a distinct lack of animal protein in their diets (87). H. Leon Abrams' comments are instructive here:

Vegetarians often maintain that a diet of meat and animal fat leads to a pre-mature death. Anthropological data from primitive societies do not support such contentions. (88)

With regards to endurance and energy levels, Dr Price traveled around the world in the 1920s and 1930s, investigating native diets. Without exception, he found a strong correlation between diets rich in animal fats, robust health and athletic ability. Special foods for Swiss athletes, for example, included bowls of fresh, raw cream. In Africa, Dr Price discovered that groups whose diets were rich in fatty meats and fish, and organ meats like liver, consistently carried off the prizes in athletic contests, and that meat-eating tribes always dominated tribes whose diets were largely vegetarian. (89)

It is popular in sports nutrition to recommend "carb loading" for athletes to increase their endurance levels. But recent studies done in New York and South Africa show that the opposite is true: athletes who "carb loaded" had significantly less endurance than those who "fat loaded" before athletic events (90).


NOTE THE REFERENCES CITED BELOW

70. (a) D. Groom and others. Ann Int Med, July 1961, 55:1:51-62; (b) WF Enos and others. J Amer Med Assoc, 1955, 158:912; (c) W Laurie and others. Lancet, Feb 1958, 231-232; (d) WB Robertson. Lancet, 1959, 1:444; (e) T Gordon. Pul Health Rep, 1957, 51:270; (f) OJ Pollack. Lancet, 1959, 1:444.

71. Ellis, Path, Montegriffo. Veganism: Clinical findings and investigations. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1970, 32:249-255.

72. EA Enas. Coronary artery disease epidemic in Indians: a cause for alarm and call for action. J Indian Med Assoc 2000 Nov;98(11):694-5, 697-702.

73. (a) F. Jeppesen and others. Effects of low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets on risk factors for ischemic heart disease in post-menopausal women. Am Jnl Clin Nutr, 1997; 65:1027-1033; (b) I. Zavaroni and others. Risk factors for coronary artery disease in healthy persons with hyperinsulinemia and normal glucose tolerance. New Eng J Med, 1989, Mar 16, 320:11:702-6; c) G. Reaven. Syndrome "X". Curr Treat Opt Cardio Med, 2001, 3:4:323-332; (d) PJ Goodwin and others. Prognostic effects of circulating insulin-like growth factor binding proteins (IGFBPS) 1and 3 in operable breast cancer. Program and abstracts of the 23rd Annual San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium; abstract 118, San Antonio, Texas, December 6-9, 2000.

74. (a) Herrmann, Schorr, Purschwitz, Rassoul, Richter. Total homocysteine, vitamin B (12), and total antioxidant status in vegetarians. Clin Chem, 2001, 47(6):1094-10; (b) D Mazzano and others. Cardiovascular risk factors in vegetarians. Normalization of hyperhomocysteinemia with vitamin B(12) and reduction of platelet aggregation with n-3 fatty acids. Thromb Res 2000 Nov 100:153-60.

75. (a) L Corr and M Oliver. The low-fat/low cholesterol diet is ineffective. Eur Heart J, 1997, 18:18-22; (b) G Taubes. The Soft Science of Dietary Fat. Science 2001 Mar 30 291:5513 2536-45; (c) DM Dreon and others. A very-low-fat diet is not associated with improved lipoprotein profiles in men with a predominance of large, low-density lipoproteins. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1999, 69:411-8.

76. (a) U Ravnskov. The Cholesterol Myths, 47-113, 79-80; (b) A Ascherio and others. Dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease in men. Brit Med J, 1996, 313:84-90.

77. B McConville. The Parents' Green Guide. (London: Pandora), 1990.

78. C Fitzroy. The Great Fallacies of Vegetarianism. Accessed on December 27, 2001.

79. R Smith and E Pinckney. Diet, Blood Cholesterol, and Coronary Heart Disease: A Critical Review of the Literature--vol. 2. (Vector Enterprises; CA)., 1991. A shortened adaptation of Smith's section on vegetarianism and longevity was published in Jnl of PPNF, 1998, 22:4: 27-29. See also S Fallon and M Enig. Wise Choices, Healthy Bodies. Wise Traditions, 2000, Winter, 15-21.

80. ML Burr and PM Sweetnam. Vegetarianism, dietary fiber, and mortality. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1982, 36:873.

81. HA Kahn and others. Association between reported diet and all-cause mortality. Amer J Epidem, 1984, 119:775.

82. DA Snowden and others. Meat consumption and fatal ischemic heart disease. Prev Med, 1984, 13:490.

83. R Smith and E Pinckney. Diet, Blood Cholesterol, and Coronary Heart Disease: A Critical Review of the Literature--vol. 2.

84. WA Price. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, 163-187.

85. V. Stefansson. The Fat of the Land, (Macmillan; NY), 1956.

86. (a) G.Z. Pitskhelauri. The Long Living of Soviet Georgia. (Human Sciences Press; NY), 1982; (b) Thomas Moore. Lifespan: What Really Affects Human Longevity (Simon & Schuster; NY), 1990.

87. HL Abrams. The relevance of paleolithic diet in determining contemporary nutritional needs. J Appl Nutr, 1979, 31:1,2:43-59.

88. HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: An anthropological/nutritional evaluation. J Appl Nutr, 1980, 32:2:53-87.

89. WA Price. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, 23-44, 129-163.

90. J Raloff. High Fat Diets Help Athletes Perform. Science News, 1996, 149:18:287.

 

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html


Not to troll.

Seriously.

Vegetarianism is not the "eco-perfect, long life giving" path you'd think.

Look at REAL WORLD DATA not at things like cultist bias.

 

Not true. Actually, the girl gorging herself on avocados and oils is as likely to croak from heart disease as someone who lives at Jack in the Box.

Listen, it is REALLY easy to be a VERY unhealthy omnivore. Vegetarianism in and of itself forces food choices, which can be a VERY GOOD THING. Most vegetarians are committed and eat to live not live to eat.

But this doesn't mean that knocking off the old animal flesh is gonna be a cure all. In fact, a lot of people become very sickly at it even if they do it "right". A lot of guys go scrawny and a lot of girls become really fat.

 

Vegetarianism and coronary disease

Other evidence refutes the 'vegetarianism is healthier' dogma. London has a high proportion of Asian immigrants. They live in the same environment as the indigenous population and mix freely with them. But the incidence of coronary artery disease is much higher in the Asian population. A study published in 1985 (38) was pretty conclusive evidence that the Asian's diet – high in linoleic acid and predominantly vegetarian – was not protective against the disease.

It is usually better to compare similar populations in the same area as, in the study above, the Asians have a different evolutionary background to northern European Caucasians. One study which did this, compares vegetarians and fresh fish eaters from two neighbouring Bantu villages. (39) This study found that the fish eaters had higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids, lower blood pressure and lower blood fat levels than the vegetarians. Both blood pressure and lipids increased throughout life in vegetarians but remained fairly constant throughout life in the fish eaters.

The published literature on fruit and vegetables and cardiovascular disease is extensive. In 1997, Drs Ness and Powles reviewed some ten ecological studies, three case-control studies, and sixteen cohort studies reporting measures of association between intake of fruit and vegetables (or intake of nutrients mainly obtained from fruit and vegetables) and coronary heart disease, together with five ecological studies, one case-control study, and eight cohort studies for stroke. (40) They point out that cohorts at 'low risk' have failed to show a protective association between intake of fruit and vegetables and cardiovascular disease (for example, a study of 26 473 Seventh Day Adventists followed up for six years, frequently quoted in support of a vegetarian lifestyle being 'healthy', showed null findings for fruit, and that many uncertainties remain concerning the relations between consumption of fruit and vegetables and the risk of cardiovascular disease.

The best evidence, surely, is obtained from looking at actual people who have a proven long life. In 1992 scientists at the Department of Community Health, Tokyo Metropolitan Institute of Gerontology, Japan, published a paper which examined the relationship of nutritional status to further life expectancy and health status in the Japanese elderly (41) . It was based on three epidemiological studies.

¨ In the first, nutrient intakes in ninety-four Japanese centenarians investigated between 1972 and 1973 showed a higher proportion of animal protein to total proteins than in contemporary average Japanese.

¨ The second demonstrated that high intakes of milk and fats and oils had favourable effects on ten-year survivorship in 422 urban residents aged sixty-nine to seventy-one. The survivors revealed a longitudinal increase in intakes of animal foods such as eggs, milk, fish and meat over the ten years.

¨ In the third study, nutrient intakes were compared between a sample from Okinawa Prefecture where life expectancies at birth and sixty-five were the longest in Japan, and a sample from Akita Prefecture where the life expectancies were much shorter. It found that the proportion of energy from animalproteins and fats were significantly higher in the former than in the latter.

 

Okay, and I can see that. I could be sitting here chunking out on ice cream & oreo cookies, and that'd be vegetarian... yet anything but healthy. It's easy to be unhealthy with whatever food choices you decide on. But you can also make healthy choices with or without meat.

I grew up an omnivore. My parents are meat 'n potato people at their best. But meat doesn't like ME! I'm allergic to all pork product, and all other meats except organically raised turkey makes me sicker 'n a dog for days. Turkey ONLY makes me ill for a few hours. It's not how the meat was processed, I only ate meats from local certified organic farmers. And I know it wasn't food poisoning or anything because I would be the only one to get sick regardless of what or how something was cooked. So at least for myself, I have to think that while there are some people that simply cannot live without meat in their diet... perhaps there are also some who simply cannot live WITH meat in their diet.

I've been a vegetarian since Thanksgiving... and have been dairy free for a little over a year now. And I have been healthier & had more energy these past few months than I've had in the past 12 years. Maybe there are long-term effects that I will have to consider, but they can't be anything as bad as being ill for a week just because I dared to eat a turkey & tomato sandwich.
love,
mom

 

For sure. But do keep in mind that the "canons" of the faith can be easily slapped down.

I myself am a very careful omni. Organic, wholefood, grain fed, etc. I know the farm my meat and dairy comes from, and there's no hormones or what have you. I make sure salmonella doesn't become a factor (btw the last outbreak was due to lettuce that was fertilised with human manure)

Worried about animalborne disease? Know yr butcher.
Worried about heart disease? LEAN MEAT, PEOPLE. And exercise.

The one thing that irritates me is that dude (the vegan dude) going and gorging at Mickey D's and saying that the diet is a recipe for disaster. I remember reading someone else had done the same thing but engaged in vigorous exercise including heavy weight training, and THRIVED on Mickey D's. Sorry no references. I do have one anecdotal one - a powerlifter of my acquaintance practically lives off Mickey D's and steroids, and his blood (which he keeps a careful eye on) looks pretty damn good.
Mind you, this is a guy that can and does lift 900lb on a regular basis with his entire body, so keep in mind he has a MASSIVE caloric requirement.

Well, depends, really. The guy who was living on McDonalds and a sedentary lifestyle probably did better. But do keep in mind again - the rate of disease and mortality in Britain is higher in the vegetarian Asians (Indians/Hindus) than the WASPs who are omnis, and this scares the crap out of me cause I see how many of these folks live. Cigarettes, beer and microwaved cheese pies. I've provided the reference before.

I think you should also keep in mind that the "wow I became a vegetarian on my doctor's advice and felt way better!" Yeah, the fact that you now watch what you eat, got statin drugs and started exercise helped too. Point is though you're not necessarily gaining anything, healthwise, from snubbing meat.

There are exceptions - I know some poor bugger allergic to chicken, eggs and dairy. I'd recommend veganism for him, though he'll be scrawny and addicted to kelp tablets and B12. If you can't tolerate eating the stuff you're not gonna thrive on it. But then again, I wouldn't take his experiences and apply them across the board either.

Yup. And those who do it for the little animal babies and not cause they want to figure out what to eat are gonna be S-C-R-E-W-E-D. Especially when their new vegetarian friends pull out the PETA video of them using electroshock and torture to eke a few more millilitres of milk out of some cow (footage courtesy of eco-terrorism guerrila front etc.) and they switch to soy ice cream and vegan oreos.

There is some benefit to being a lazy eater omni - the animal ate a lot of healthy vegetables and quite a bit of that transfers to you.

 

Yeah, I do think it's cruel. And, I really don't have an issue admitting that either.

 

And for the last time.........FUCK the "facts"

Listen to your fucking body, that's all there is to it. No study or fact is going to help you live a longer life, if you don't just listen to your body's cravings, and pay attention to red flags that your body constantly gives off to warn you if you aren't eating/living properly.

Seriously.

I am sick of hearing that "this doctor or scientist said this or that" or that "this study has shown this"

Fuck the studies. Fuck the doctors. They are just as fucking clueless as everyone else.

As I said before, everyone is different. Everyone has different body chemistry. Some people can't handle certain foods, and some people need those certain things that other people can't even come within 10 feet of. Everyone's body reacts differently to different things. You cannot generalize like that, you just can't.

I seriously am just soo sick of everyone thinking that their text books, and internet sources are GOD....

No doctor, scientist, or anything....knows YOUR OWN body, the way you do. Doctors and scientists are humans just like the rest of us, and make mistakes...and no one FULLY understands why some things just HAPPEN.

I've seen and heard the healthiest fucking people die of fucked up shit just because it HAPPENED. I've seen people who, you would think, were leading a really UNhealthy life, smoking 3 packs a day, drinking, eating fast food 3 times a day...etc...live to be 90!!

And in my opinion, t hat's because it has MORE to do with your mind, and the way you view life, than it does what you eat, etc.... It is my opinion that PESSIMISTS die sooner than OPTIMISTS. But that's just a thought.

My point is. Listen to your body, not some other fucking person. Kick back, and relax...smile once and a while...and THEN, you will be healthy, and live out to your fullest

THE END

 

also, P.S....

MOST veggies/vegans do it, because they care about the animals/environment.... not just because they think it's "healthier"

some do, maybe... but, as far as I know...most of the catz on here, do it for the animals.

I was NOT thinking about myself when I went vegan....it was a SELFLESS decision.

I would rather die at 30, knowing that I didn't harm or kill another creature.... than die at 120 with the guilt of having consumed far too many animal's lives.

And, that's just how I feel.