Possible God

If we cant even comprehend this god due to logical impossibility, what business do we (assuming we are logical and truth seeking) have believing in god? Things beyond our logic to the best of our knowledge can not exist. So until something is proven to be logically possible, how can we in good faith posit it?

O a priori postulates. What joy thou bringeth me.

 

Some things are just difficult to describe

 

Try your very very bestest.

 

Why believe in God? The desire to and fullfillment of being in communion with the infinite. Why do we value beauty? It's something beyond words or logic.

 

Many people much smarter than I am have tried and felt that they came short in explaining it.

Imo, it's the reason why poetic language is used so often in religions.

 

Imo, that's the best answer so far.

 

You misunderstand. I know perfectly well the appeal of believing in a god. I meant the logically sound belief in the existence of god, congruent with the truth of reality and one's honest evaluation of such, distinct from faith. This god is incompatible with logic. To believe in a god one must renounce logic and embrace faith. One must lie to oneself. One can certainly live in such a fantasy, as we are our own arbiters and the playwrights of our own phenomenological productions. Bad faith becomes good faith and up becomes down. Madness! Brilliance!

God is not beyond words and logic. God is incompatible with them.

 

You can point to the moon but that's all you can do. Logic has its limits.

 

I dont disagree. But humor me. Define and describe these limits. Elaboration makes Stabby happy.

 

What's true reality? I can look at a woman and say she is simply comprised of 100 trillion cells or I can look at her and say she's beautiful and I love her. There are differenct ways of looking at things.

Beyond imo.

 

Objective, material reality of course. What is existing and what are the physical properties of such. "That woman has X number of cells (assuming such a number is correct) is a statement about objective reality, independent of our perceptions and the same for everyone. "She is beautiful and I love her" are subjective evaluations of reality, contingent on us, the subject, the observer appraising the observed. The belief in the existence of a thing that is existing outside of you is a belief about objective reality.

 

I think God is experienced through subjective reality only. The kind of reality that causes ecstasy in a person at the sight of a sunset.

Objective reality is indispensible, but cold and lifeless.

 

That which is not demonstrateable to others and observed objectively can not be considered to be existing apart from oneself. I don't know what religion you're part of but in most of them they call that blasphemy. In the converse situation it's called playing pretend.

This is why I say that belief in god is a matter of faith. Not that I wish to put a value judgment on faith, so long as those with faith concede that the object of their faith is just that, within their own minds.

 

But it is demonstrable to others, just in a different way. It's just a matter of accepting or not accepting that there is another way to demonstrate something.

Belief in God is a matter of faith, because it cannot be empirically or scientifically demonstrable. Many of faith don't deny this.

Poetry seeks to point to it in hopes that others can 'see' and feel what they 'see' and feel.

 

I am not exactly sure how I can, honestly. But I'll think of a way.

Trying to explain it only ends up creating more poetry, so I am really not sure how without using logic.

But I'll say that thinking in abstractions are not necessarily logical, but they can have a way to demonstrate something... like art does. Art doesn't seem to follow any rules of logic but yet it ends up touching up on truths that we can't demonstrate through logical means because then it would hinder it's message and reshape it to something other than what it is.

 

You can demonstrate to to others that you are feeling such feelings, but you can not demonstrate to them that these feelings are of a god. We went over this a while ago that I vehemently disagree that the observation of you observing god does not count as a demonstration of god. Disagreements are fine.

Indeed, when I was Jewish we would just admit that our beliefs were irrational and unfounded but they were a force for good so we held them. There is no problem with this. The stance that someone has a rational reason to believe in a god existing objectively, and that everyone should see the light and belief always irks me. And this trend of religious solipsism is amusing.

 

That's just it, though. That's why logic is limited. The very act of explaining this in rational terms reshapes what it is that it being expressed and it is more than just religious solipsism or a social instrument to make people more compassionate towards others.

Even uses phrases like, 'see the light' or 'feelings are associated to a God' limits what is being said. Because I could argue what 'seeing the light is' and I can argue on what these feelings are. But then semantic problems would begin to arise and we would begin to pit one group of words against another group of words and that would just continue on without getting anywhere.

And I don't believe in forcing others to 'see the light', I just ask them to see for themselves. I realize that is logically weak.

That's ok if you see it differently though, but in my experience, logic really does have it's limits even if its not something directly demonstrable.

As for seeing the light, that is a good way of expressing it, but it's a meaningless term... but that it isn't meaningless for those that believe. But it is a good description of what some people experience when they come to a realization about something. Sorry if I am sounding like a religious putz. I know this thread is about something else and that I am in the atheist & agnostic forum.

 

If love and beauty are pretend then what is the value of life? It's dead. That's why subjective reality will never be obsolete. Plus, we can relate similar experiences.

There is no proof of God other than faith in God leads to a transformation in perception in an individual that is life changing. It's a value judgement. Science says love is neurons firing in the brain, but I would guess most people put more value in it than that.

 

You act as if love and beauty are congruent with this god. I know love and beauty and I do not know a god. This god is completely and utterly worthless and superfluous in a person's life. Your faulty logic goes P1 God is love. P2 God is pretend. C Love is pretend. But love can (and I believe it does) exist without a god.

Of course subjective reality will never be obsolete, you seriously misunderstand the metaphysical purpose of distinguishing between the two. Neither can ever be obsolete. There is a time and place to emphasize both.

There is no proof of god. That "faith in god" can change lives is not proof for a god. If I had irrational faith in an invisible gnome king in the sky that changed my life, would that be proof in the gnome king? Of course not. Proof is demonstratable How can you demonstrate that that is a god and not the doings of your own psyche? You cant because nobody has access to your individual perspective.

Yes love is more than neurons, love has any meaning that the conscious mind ascribes to it. Once the mind is sentient, life can have literally any meaning as long as it's in agreement with one's honest evaluations of reality.