Possible draft?

I'm with you, L/YP! It's great that you two feel so stringly about your religions, and I understand that it is part of every part of your lives, even war. For the rest of us, however, it has nothing to do with it!

I am going to agree with HippieLngstckng on the points made about RA controdicting himself with his own religous beliefs. I am also going to agree that this guy is not worth arguing with.

Peace to you - lf

 

Ok, I wont use Satan in my posts anymore to allow for more understanding to those that do not share my beliefs in God. Does evil work for you? I think evil is a good sub word.

I have yet to contradict myself. I am not perfect. God said thou shalt not kill. He also said for me to obey my government. He also said that if a man commints murder, the person asigned to kill that murder by his government would not be persecuted.

Principles of the Just War



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• A just war can only be waged as a last resort, after reasonable attempts to bring justice have been exhausted.
• A just war can only be waged by a legitimate authority. People, vigilantes, terrorists do not wage just wars; only a legitimate government is permitted to wage a war that can be considered justified.
• A just war can only be fought to redress wrongs that have been committed. A first strike attack on a nation that has committed no atrocities cannot be considered justice; that's aggression.
• A just war can only be fought with "right" intentions. War is not justified to gain control of another nation, it's assets or it's people. If the right intention for going to war is not present, justice is not present.
• A just war can only be fought if there is a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
• A just war can only be fought if the ultimate goal is to re-establish peace. More specifically, war is not justified if the situation in a country cannot be reasonably expected to be better after the war than before.
• A just war must never allow the force used to be disproportional to the need. Nations must be prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the wrongs that have been committed.
• A just war must employ weapons and tactics that discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Innocent civilians are never permissible targets of war, and war can only be just if every effort is made to avoid civilian casualties.

When you look at these criteria, the United States seems to have a pretty strong case to stop the threat that these people poses to humanity.The US Government is a legitimate authority and does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4). Besides, Psalm 82:4 commands us to "Deliver the poor and needy; free them from the hand of the wicked"Hussein has shown himself to be an evil dictator. He has consistently lied about his chemical and biological weapons program. He has been less than forthcoming when pressed by the UN weapons inspectors, both after the Persian Gulf War and in advance of this one. He has brutally murdered untold Iraqis who have dared to resist him. These facts are indisputable. Without question he fits the description that the Church Father Augustine gave of those who are rightly condemned and against whom war is justifiably waged: "The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such like things, all these are rightly condemned in war." (Contra Faust. xxii, 74).

One more thing I'll say. You are right, it is your choice. If you feel like hiding behind The Bible and using bits and pieces to justify your cowardice you have the right to do so. I on the other hand will use The Bible as my sword. If my nation calls on me, I will fight for Iraq, and I will fight for you as well.

 

Ok, I can agree with that. But finishing daddy's oil fight doesn't fit this description!

 

I hope not, the volunteer army is one of the things that make our country great.. If they do, I would not mind because I am my mothers only son meaning I can't be drafted.. Instead I would go to West Point and become an officer because I feal it is important to serve my country. Although if the draft is not started I may want to be come a Lawyer...

The draft seems like a communist program to me but if my country needs me I will come. The reason the draft is important is because alot of people would not enlist. IMHO it dosn't matter who's president war will happen and you should serve your country if it needs you.. The draft coming back is a rumor.. Bush is not crazey no matter what you think.. He would not comit political suicide like that..

 

The war was not fought for oil, but for justice and peace. I suppose you could say that it's "finishing Daddy's job" but thats true - Saddam Hussein should have been taken care of long ago.

Also, I do not see the problem with the draft. The draft was used during World War II - no one complained then. In fact, the draft wasn't really even needed - the men would have volunteered anyway. Why was it okay to draft Americans to fight for Europe but not okay to draft Americans to fight for Iraq?

 

Proove your theory. Teach me. Show me that this War is over oil. When you are done, I'll show you every discusting picture I can find of what Sadam did to his people. I'll also show you pictures of Sept 11th and show you pictures of people jumping out of the buildings. I'll show you people crying over lost loved ones. I'll show you people crying from fear. I'll show you children that don't have parents in Iraq because their parents disagred with a tyrant. To be honest with you, I don't think either of the 2 websites I run have enough storage for me to show you everything. One more thing, to those of you that don't think this involves your freedom. http://www.homelandsecurityus.net Get a tisue, and find someone to hug, you're gonna need it.

 

Indeed, however, we left it up to the UN. The UN tried to do it peacefully for a good 12 years. Then, out of nowhere, we were attacked in our homes. We talked with the UN. The UN wanted to do more talking. We were tired of talking, so we decided to get involved in a more direct way!

 

Amen!
thank god another pro-war person!


also if you dont want the draft.. get sum of your liberal friends to serve our country.. you may not agree with the war but if you can eather enlist, be commisioned, or get drafted you mingt want to understand why..

Its because of the Libratarians who wont enlist and the liberals who have cut spending for the millitary.. so look here if the millitary is undermaned and underfunded what do you expect them to do... the draft may be established but why fear it? why fear serving your country? how bout some patriorism? you need to realize that you can only protest because of your rights but some liberals call themselves "Anti-american" or some call them selves "anarchists"... well let me ask you this do these anarchists realize they can only be anarchists because they have rights because of a government? i dont think they do...

oh and by the way were finding Iraqs WMD's guess where.. germany and france.. mabe you should watch Fox news because they tell the truth... there the only station w/ a show like hanidy and colmes a show with a democrat and a republican hoast.. even colmes admits the finding of Iraqi weapons In europe.. and look at gas prices I dont see the oil you think were getting...

 

Real American, all of your bible based evidence isn't worth shit to anyone who doesn't believe in your religion. The US prides itself on being a free country, but much of that was thrown down the shitter. Use of certain drugs, which interfere with the rights of no person, has been made illegal (of course the profitable ones stay legal). Gay mairraige has been banned beacuse of religion and hateful homophobes who can't accept those who are different. But to force service in the military would destroy our freedom much more severely. This is supposed to be a democracy, and I assure you that there would be no draft were it up to the people.

 

RA, have I somehow convaied to you that I think the things that SH has done to be ok? If so I am truely sorry! I think you would be hard pressed to find someone (other than a terrorist) isn't against him! These are attrosities of the worst kind, to be sure!

Or did you just assume that because I am not pro-war that I am, like you sugest, I just want to "hug a tree and invite terrorists over for dinner?"

I have never doubted that this man is as close to evil as hitler.

 

oh no i dont sujest u agree w/ SH but some people who are raticaly left would say so.. and i know that alot of people feal the same as you do..

the drugs dont interfear w/ the other people's rights but.. they kill people.. dont be stuped.. gay merrage is not natural Im sorry I am not pro-banning it and I know gay people who are nice, good people.. but it is not natural... and the draft is for the safty of the people its sad that you can hate your country just when a republican is president.. now let me ask you are u anti-war? were u anti-war when clinton bombed Iraq to cover his merital problems?

 

That's all that I'm saying, too. No one has the right to send anyone else to their death.

Even with all of RA's bible based evidence, he forgets that Christ came to make people understand that it isn't not the letter of the law that matters, it is the principle. And He left His principle in the commandment that is greater than ANY Moses' brought off Sinai, to love thy neighbor as thyself. Aaand, since I feel as though I am monopolizing this discussion... well, I'll let you guys take care of the rest... *grin*

I'm tired of repeating myself. There is nothing I can say that I haven't said before, so I am leaving this thread. By the way, what I meant about being a reflection of something bigger than ourselves is that we are reflecting our political ideology, and we should present it respectfully, because getting attitudes with people like this is absolutely pointless, from what I have seen. It only adds fuel to their fire.

For goodness sakes, I've been DREAMING about debating with this guy. I'm outta here.... GET HIM, YOU GUYS!!!

Real American, sir, God bless you, you will be in my prayers... but maybe the others can explain why we feel the way we feel better than I can. Be nice, now, everyone. **GRIN**

 

yea I agree.

yes this is true. It is hard to debate because people get emotional. I am head dellegate for my model United Nations team and we represent Viet Nam who was anti-Iraq war.. lol I hated it but it is always good to learn a new perspective.. also In my speech class we got to our debate unit and we debated stem cell seserch.. I had to be anti-stemcell and this was hadr because my father works in that field and Its hard to debate a thing that you were taught to accept.. not to mention they can be taken from living afterbirth so it isn't an abortion thing (good thing cuz im pro-life ).. but my point is always see the other side of the arguement and dont let it get personal or else you will become Al Gore and your old friend will forsake you (clinton) or in our case we might become some extream biblical nut.. and god knows those both are usualy hypocrites no matter your wing (left or right) there are nuts and the easyest way to become one is to take everyting personaly..

 

Sorry you think I'm a biblical nut, Republican. Didn't mean to make you think that I'm some bible-beating, psycho-Christian, 'cause I'm not... I swear...
**GRIN**
Okay, I'm really leaving now. Play nice, ya'll...

(note to self: stop checking this thread... you are addicted. ADDICTED I SAY!)

 

oh no thats not what im implying..
im talkin bout this

gettin emotionaly envolved in debate.. i wuz just givin an example.. lol and what happens if you get too involved u become a nut like gore or sum of those radical christicans (im a christian and all but sum people are crazey and become hipocrats)

hypocracy is a common thing in debate and god knows I do it sum time.. and what i wuz trying to say is dont dream bout it lol cuz if u do ur goin overbord.. and hypocracy will ensue after u go crazey.. im too far off the deep end save yourself..

I luv being crazey..

 

I have that affect on people, they meet or talk to me, then dream about me.

 

Why are you even on this forum Real American? Are you even a 'hippie' (to the lowest meaning of the term)? And I do know my information, never judge a person on what he/she knows on their age. It's called ageism, and it's a form of prejudice, which is what us hippies are all against.

I don't know why you insist on teasing us. Are you here just for that?

OK. I know that there were wars in the past that may or may not be justifiable (ie. Revolutionary War [independence], WWII [stopping Hitler]). But the reason why we protest war, is because they are dozens of more choices and non-violent actions, that Bush could've taken to prevent war and still get Hussein out of power.

But the bigger reason why we protest war, in general, because we don't want our children growing up in a world, where everything that you believe in is shot down by the power of the government. Like Graham Nash once said, "Teach Your Children Well, their parents' hell will slowly go by." Well, we want to teach our children that fighting will not solve anything, but it will cause even more pain and aggression. Like Zeppelin once said, "The Pain Of War Cannot Excede, The Woe Of Aftermath."

Do you like fighting in general? And I say that, because your argumentative and hurtful rebuttals to other forum members replies, really show that you do take pride, in hurt. Why don't you think about what you want, instead of what Bush wants. As so many people have said before, "For The Love Of GOD!!!! Will Somebody, Think Of The Children!!!!"

 

whooopeee!! we're all gonna die!

i really dont see why amerika should get involved in any conflicts in the middle east. those tensions have been there for thousands of years. realistically, if there wasn't an amerikan presence throughout the middle east, then all this "terrorism" wouldn't be happening. and, anyway, the last time i checked, iraq didn't fly a fucking plane into any amerikan buildings. sure, saddam was a demented dictator, but that's not any of our business. at least until it affects the amerikan agenda...

dude, mr. 'real american', why are you even in these forums? just curious... you're definitely different from everyone else herein.

peace and prosperity to you and yours. hope i dont get drafted after i graduate next year.

 

im so excited. i cant wait to die. i cant wait to see innocent people in Iraq die. i cant wait to bomb Iraqi children. i cant wait to send my friends , my lovers, future poets artists and revolutionarys to die.

cant you tell im so excited for a draft. ^

NOOOO man the point is whether a war is justifyed or not is gonna be an opionion so people should not be forced to fight. ever.

i dont believe in being patriotic either. just because i am born on one side of an imaginary line does not make me different as a person. it does not mean im better or worse than anyone else in the world. i would like to get rid of organized religion and countries both alltogether but i know thats idealistic waay and never gonna happen so i dont know how i feel man i just dont want people to die and i think that there can be a better way. through peace.

there is no way to peace.... peace is the way .

 

LOL! Sir, you are too much! **GRIN**