Possible draft?

Discussion in 'Hippies' started by user__friendly, Jun 2, 2004.

  1. HippieLngstckng

    HippieLngstckng Bringer of DOOM!!!

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    Heh heh heh! Well, somebody has a strong opinion (we won't say any names, now will we, "Real American"?). And you know what? You're entitled.

    I believe we have enough oil for our country, I've heard this already from people other than you that are connected with the oil industry. But you know what? It's a non-renewable resource, meaning that there is a *LIMITED SUPPLY*. And our gov't is greedy. We would just love to have some of the major oil producing countries under our belt. Can anybody say, "Iraq"? Better yet, can we say "finishing Daddy Bush's war"? I don't want my friends to be killed over a political war, I'm sorry "Real American", but our lives are worth more than this, we are being used as pawns by our own country. By the way, it does nothing for your credibility to call us draftdodgers and crybabies. People might take you more seriously if you knew how to express your opinions and concerns without attacking others. It's something that comes with maturity, and who knows, maybe someday soon (hopefully very soon!) you will learn to have tact when dealing with others. But until then, you will have to understand that many people don't support this war, and it isn't like we are fighting for our own freedom. Our own freedom has already been won, by many brave and patriotic individuals who believed in the American dream. And you know what? If it were a war like that, where I was protecting my own, I'd be first to step up to the plate and lay down my life to ensure my children were able to enjoy the freedoms I do. But it isn't about that. Please, "Real American" open your heart and mind for one brief moment. We aren't talking about protecting our own borders, here, we're talking about sticking our nose in another country's business. Last time that happened, I believe it was the Vietnam War, and we didn't come out of that smelling like roses, now did we? This is the truth... We need to reinforce our borders, and take better precautions INSIDE of our country, instead of persuing madness OUTSIDE of it. I'm not talking about hugging terrorists, I'm talking about not becoming terrorists ourselves. I'm not a very good Christian, sir, but I will say this... my Lord is the Prince of Peace, and Bush should not go proclaiming war in His name. You will be in my prayers. May you learn the love and tolerance that will complete your life, and soften your angry and judgemental heart. God bless you, sir. Sincerely, Julie :D
     
  2. backtothelab

    backtothelab Senior Member

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    Your right we have tons of oil here, which is why we are in iraq. If we blow all their oil, the world's oil is in the US. Wow now we have the whole planet wrapped around our finger. It's as simple as that. They've been planning this shit for decades, it's nothing new.
     
  3. GOB1029

    GOB1029 Member

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    real american,

    i think i can safely assume that you believe in God. i do too. you told "us" to go hug a tree or invite a terrorist into our home for dinner. i think i can also assume that you consider terrorism a sin, i know i do. therefore, a terrorist would be a sinner. if i remember correctly, Jesus often dined with sinners. also, in response to your examples of being opressed and "you would fight for your freedom?" i would protest for my freedom. if you will remember Ghandi, please. india was being opressed by great britian at the time, and he did nothing violently. he had a method of protesting peacefully, and india got what they wanted. you don't have to kill to get what you want. also, if you will remember, in the garden before Jesus was captured, peter drew his sword and cut the soldier's ear off. Jesus told him to put down his sword, for "those who live by the sword die by the sword". i hope that maybe you will open YOUR eyes, and see that violence is not the way.
     
  4. Real American

    Real American Banned

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    I'll just go down the list in order of replies sense my post on this thread.

    Lunar Forest: First off,thanks for calling me a troll. Second you said:
    You do remeber September 11th right? I know I do, I woke up on my off day. Went on an IRC channel, and was bombarded with friends asking me what was happening in Houston with recent events in NYC. I had no clue what was going on. I turned on the TV and was astonished. After 15 mins of hearing reporters talk about what was going on, I watched as the 2nd plane flew into the building. I then got on my knees and prayed. Not to long after my boss called me wanting me to come into work because the store had a masive amount of customers buying tv's and radios. I told him no, that my family was more important than the almighty dollar. Later, my wife and I were talking about these events as news unfolded on the tv. I predicted that this was our pearl harbor. You remeber pearl harbor right? That was when there was a major event happening on the other side of the world. That was back when the United States decided not to get involved in other countries affairs. That's when another country decided to take action against us. That was the last time we sat idoly by to watch other countries leaders destroy their inhabitents. That was the last time we decided to let a tyrant do whatever they want.

    Need I remind you Lunar Forest that during the 70's and 80's these same groups were attacking us in our airports,hijacking our planes and making plans to kill us. To this day they are making plans. Right now these groups claim to have loads of supportes in our country, waiting for the signal to attack. Let me give you another analogy. Let's say a convicted killer is on the loose. We had him, but he escaped. Should we just forget about it? Perhaps not worry about it sense it doesn't affect us personaly? Maybe because he is 500 miles away it doesn't realy matter. Perhaps he kills someone again, but it's of no concern to you or I because it wasn't us he killed, or any of our family members? I say no, I say it does matter, because that killer is killing people, and chances are, he will kill again. My father tought me to protect the weaker people. All my life I have been that person you run to when you were in trouble. Be it you needed advice on something, or just a sholder to cry on, I was the person you went to. At 6'7" and 365lbs in high school, I found myself taking up for the "nerds". I don't condone violence, but in my earlier years in life, I learned turning the other cheek didn't always work. Sometimes you have to fight back. That's where we are at now. I'm not doubting that some in our government have some other motive. But what I do see, and hear from the soldiers over there is that we are making a difference. Just recently in Iraq, the first ever radio talk show was created. 80,000 Iraqi's call in a day to a radio station that has 2 phone lines and discuss whatever they want to talk about. Most are just happy that they have this freedom. The host of the show( I can't remeber his name at the moment, and even if I could, wouldn't be able to spell it) says that most of the callers call in and complain about lack of electricity. Good thing there are people over there now working on that isue. Other complin about American's being over there. Other praise Americans for being over there. Point is, not to long ago, had they complained about anything, they would be subject to death. That would be comparable to you and I talking here, and our government killing us because we voiced our opinion. Reguardles if you see it or not, we are over there fighting for freedom. I have yet talked to a soldier that told me "I hate seeing the smiles on the faces of the people we are helping". I don't think I will ever hear that.

    lover/young_peace:
    So you don't think helping people is justified? Please by all means, re post and explain yourself more. One more thing, if the draft does come, and you are of age, you will be called apon. I'll remind you that even priests and rabis fought in the Vietnam Contreversy.

    HippieLngstckng:
    Kinda like you calling me immature correct? I'm just calling it the way I see it. In previous posts on this thread, people have talked about not being able to run to Canada or Mexico. Kinda sound like draft dodging to me. As for the cry babies. Well, again, I called it like I saw it. It wasn't realy a negative attack on your character, just an observence of what I saw.

    backtothelab:
    I'm sorry, but I'm just going to tell you what I tell my son. If you don't know what you are talkign about, please don't open your mouth. If you are interested in what is being talked about, but don't understand, then ask a question. If the answer given to you does not do it for you, do your own research. I also tell him not to be a smart ass, as it will get him nowhere in life.

    GOB1029:
    What I realy said was
    That wan't an attack on anyone, I'm just trying to get my point across. As for:
    that is true. Do you remeber when Moses talked with God in the mountain. Moses didn't want the job, he didn't think himself worthy, and quite frankly, I think he was scared. However, God had already planed on using Moses. He told Moses that He would "harden the heart of Pharo". He also told moses of the Miracles He would perform through Moses. Point is, God knew there would be death, and He knew that Pharo would die because he believed himself to be greater than He was.

    We are human, and we are not perfect. However, I myself can't sit here and do nothing. I have gotten out of my car with my wife yelling "your gonna get shot" as a homles man herassed an mother with her children. I have stoped a grown man bigger than I from beating his child. I have fussed at parents in their car at a red light with babies in the car not in car seats. When I see something that just isn't right, I voice my opinion. I tried to sign up for our armed forces. Took the test, made a 99 on it. Could have done whatever I wanted in the forces. They told me I was over weight. I told them they could work it off me in boot camp. They didn't go for it. My point is, the only way I can do anything now is to talk to people. I surf the internet daily looking for places I can talk with people. Hoping I can show them how helping other people is benificial.

    To all of you: Yes, I truely understand your desire for peace. I myself would prefer to live in a world that didn't center itself on money. I wish we could all work together for each other, beinifiting off of each other. Those that don't want to work can leave and go live on an island as far as I am concerned. But this dream will never happen. It's hard to accept it, but the world for the most part is selfish. As I stated before, I'm sure there are evil bastards in our government that have other ideas for being in Iraq. I'm sure they have dreams for other countries as well. However, I do know for a fact that we are over there making peoples lives better. Would it be that we could save one child out of 100, it is better off than loosing all of them.
     
  5. lover/young_peace

    lover/young_peace Senior Member

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    somebody else go... ive got nothing here to say. i dont want death. ah, if the world were this simple......
     
  6. GOB1029

    GOB1029 Member

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    i am happy you helped these people, unless you used violence. Jesus also said, "you have heard it said "and eye for an eye" but i tell you, if a man strikes you, turn the other cheek." That's a pretty clear peace statement. i agree with you that we should not just sit around and let the stuff happen. i am TOTALLY AGAINST sitting back, doing nothing but complaining about how our government "sucks". i think we should work on changing ourselves, then people who are worse off than us, and maybe, eventually obtain worldwide happiness. however, if a man was going to kill my children, i would atempt to stop him. he would most likely kill me, because i am not using and weapons or violence. however, i know that my children would be alright, because they would go to heaven, if they weren't "good with God", i would pray at that moment that they would accept Jesus. i would also know that i'm good with God, and that i would go to heaven. i think that all we can do for the souls in the world that commit these acts of violence, or degrade others, or any sin, is pray. pray that they would come to know Jesus as their savior, and that they would change their ways. if someone kills my wife, then i kill him, then there are just two murderers, no good has come from it, except possibly, in a sick way my (for lack of better word) satisfaction of killing my wife's murderer.

    also, in response to God knowing there would be death, death is inevitable, however, death is just another stage of life, after death, depending on whether or not you believe that Jesus Christ is your savior, you will either enter eternal paradise and peace in Heaven, or eternal torture in Hell. if you will recall the battle of jericho, the soldiers did no fighting, they simply marched (much like what hippies did, and many people still do) around the city, until the walls fell down. i believe that if humanity protests enough, eventually, we will have peace. Dwight D. Eisenhower once said, "I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it." hopefully, this will occur sometime. i don't know if i have influenced you at all, but i will pray that you will truly let Jesus take over your heart and life, and that you will see violence is not the answer.
     
  7. GOB1029

    GOB1029 Member

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    also, not directed to real american, more related to the draft, if the draft does come, and i get called, i will go, however, if i am on the battlefield, or in a plane, or i am given the "responsibility" of killing, i will not do it, either i will get killed, or i will get kicked out of the military, if that happens. i support them because they're trying to obtain peace, but i do not support their methods, i pray every morning and night that they will realize that they are going about it all wrong.
     
  8. gEo_tehaD_returns

    gEo_tehaD_returns Senior Member

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    I think it's unlikely that this bill will pass. But if it does, looks like I'm gonna be doing some jail time. Better than killing and being killed.

    You know, if enough people refused to be drafted, they'd quickly run out of prison space. What would they do then? Would they just seriously overcrowd the prisons? It'd become quite obvious that the people are being forced to fight a war that they do not believe in. The government exists for the people doesn't it? So why is it sending the people off to die for something which the people don't believe in? The government would recieve lots of criticism, and would have to choose between pushing it's own disregard for it's established purpose into the light for all to see, or cancelling the draft.
     
  9. MichaelByrd1967

    MichaelByrd1967 Garcia Wannabe

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    The only reason why Bush is doing this bullshit "War On Terror", is because he wants to get re-elected. He must have thought of the idea after seeing 'Canadian Bacon', which is a Michael Moore film, about a president who wants to get re-elected starts a Cold War with Canada, just so his approval ratings go up.

    Bush is so much of a child, that after Cheney played him the tape, Bush got right on it and made up some bullshit story about a guy named Osama Bin Laden and his so called Al-Quaida [sp]. 9/11 was Bushes own damn fault for not taking any action to prevent it. Like hell, "it was inevitable" he says.

    'Anybody but Bush '04'. Hell why don't we just not have a president for 4 years and see how it goes.
     
  10. Real American

    Real American Banned

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    I was going to reply and argue with you, then I saw your age. I understand now. I will say this though, educate yourself on the stuff you talk about. Without information, you make yourself look like a babling windbag.
     
  11. lunar forest

    lunar forest Member

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    RA, I am sorry if referring to you as a "troll" was insulting to you. I assumed that because your name ("Real American") sounds holier than thou, and has to do with this particular topic and not that of the entire forum, and that you only had 2 posts (and the other one also being controversial.) It seemed to me, that you came here with the sole purpose of either stirring up trouble, or convincing members of this community to your point of view.
    Either of these things comply with this definition of trolls, and the latter of which you have already admitted to. http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/dealingwithtrolls.html

    You have also highjacked this thread. Had you started your own thread on this subject, as opposed to highjacking one about the possible draft and the attempt to pass laws about it.
    Name calling such as "crybaby" is not going to win anyone to your side. As some have said already, your approach seems immature. Another reason I assumed you to be a troll (you didn't make very convincing points, you merely said things that appeared to be attempts to upset members of this online community.) Some of us may wish to be "draft dodgers" so honestly I cannot dispute this one. ;) And again, if you wish to fight this war, that is your right, but many, dare I say even most of us feel that it is unjust and that it is our right to make that choice.

    Also, and this is directed at all viewing this thread, if you honestly believe that this war isn't about oil (as well as finishing daddy's war - good point, HippieLngstckng,) please read the link that I previously posted. It is a national geographic article on the subject, very interesting. Before you make up your mind on the topic it would be wise to read this first. :)

    Peace man, really.
     
  12. lunar forest

    lunar forest Member

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    Again, if you are not a troll, why do you insist on name calling? Please, this is a peaceful community, well for the most part. :rolleyes:
     
  13. HippieLngstckng

    HippieLngstckng Bringer of DOOM!!!

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    "Real American"

    My dear sir, you have me all wrong. You see, "Draftdodger" and "Crybaby" are insulting. Telling someone that they are immature for name calling, something I specifically remember doing when I was a child, is just stating a fact.

    "I called it like I saw it. It wasn't really an attack on your character, just an observance of what I saw." Yes, sir, well, same here.

    Sir, I will still be in prayer for you, may the Lord soften your hardened heart. But until you have an open mind and heart, I see there really is no point in arguing with you, because there is not even a chance for you to even look at this situation from anyone's point of view but your own. Good day to you, sir.
     
  14. Real American

    Real American Banned

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    Nope, it wasn't insulting. I was simply saying thanks. I'll remind you that assumption is the mother of all f-ups. My purpose for joining this community was simply to debate my feelings on a few of your topics. I found your forums, read some interesting things and decided I should register and voice my opinion. I don't realy see how I have hijacked this thread. I am simply doing what others are doing, posting my feelings on the subject. Maybe you are used to jerks and so called "trolls" coming here and disrupting your life, but I personaly don't think that makes it right for you to automaticly put me in that group. I'm not trying to "win" anyone over to my "side". I'm simply talkikng, like you are, and voicing my opinion. Look at how you attack me. I have read many posts on this forums, and I have seen many of your members with more than 2 posts say much worse things than I have said.
    So does that mean if you don't see any convining points in anyones feelings on this forum then they are a possable "troll"? One more "convincing point" for you lunar forest, I did not call that young person anything. I said Without information, you make yourself look like a babling windbag. That goes for myself, or any other person that makes an attempt at saying something without the proper knowlege to back it up.

    HippieLngstckng:
    I think out of all the people here expressing their feelings, you seem to have your head on straight. Sure we disagree on some things but who doesn't? I thankyou for your prayers. I feel one can never have enough people praying for them. I would like to point out a fact though. In your same simplistic reasoning of saying someone was immature, I feel that can be combined with the reasoning of calling someone a "draftdodger". If you in fact dodge the draft, then you are a draft dodger. Many people on this thread implied they would do so. So under your logic, that word aplies. With the use of the word crybabies, well, I see it now as lunar forest using the word troll. You said to me
    I would like you to go back and read my posts. Please tell me where I say I understand what you want isn't opening my mind? Once again, that's why I am here, to discuse and learn. To get others Ideas and form my own. That my friend is what communication is all about. I personaly love the idea of world peace. I just see the true fact that it will never happen. At least, it will not happen while I am alive. From reading The Bible, I know that the only time there will be world peace is after Jesus has called his bride up into heaven. For 7 years there will be "world peace" with the Anti-Christ leading. At the end of that 7 years, Jesus will return and with a single word, kill every last living creature that stands against him. Let me make this clear, so you don't have to question me on it again. I do not condone war, I do not like killing. I do not like the idea of people dieing. But come on, without War, we would not be free. Please look up "American Revolution".

    As for the draft. I don't think it will pass. I do think it sad though that this amount of Americans don't feel it's necceary to fight for freedom, be it their own or someone elses.
     
  15. HippieLngstckng

    HippieLngstckng Bringer of DOOM!!!

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    No sir, I'm sorry, I have to disagree. We fought for our own freedoms, and assisting another country by sending food and medical supplies is one thing, but laying down our own childrens lives is entirely another. We cannot stop the ball from dropping when our Divine Father says it is time to go. And you are correct, sir, the end times are coming very, very soon. Which is why it is impossible to try to hinder this from happening. All we can do is ready ourselves. At least that's the way I see it.

    I'm not insulted, but it seems that a couple of people are rather offended because of the condecending tone that your first letter had taken. The lives you speak of sending to fight are not yours to send. I think everyone should have the right to say "no" to something they don't support. Sir, there are a lot of people who feel the way that you feel, and all of those people may go fight, if they wish, and I pray for their safe return (may I mention that I have friends and family fighting in Iraq, so everyone's prayers are appreciated). But those that don't want to, shouldn't. God did give us free will and the ability to exercise it. Not everyone chooses wisely, but that comes with being a part of this flawed human race :) So, if I am a sinner for feeling the way that I feel, then God, be gracious and forgive me. But my Lord gave me the right to choose, and my upbringing and understanding of this life as I know it makes my heart cry out for peace.

    Sir, the only qualm I have with you is the insults you've thrown the others way. Even in the face of adversity, when you're presenting yourself as a Christian, you should present yourself accordingly, as you are supposed to be a reflection of our Lord. Yes, I agree, their responses to you could have been tempered with some love and compassion, as we reap what we sow (shame on you guys, you should know better). But they don't claim to be followers of my beloved rabbi, either.
     
  16. schoolkid

    schoolkid Member

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    I think that no one should be forced to fight if they do not approve of it, especially if it is against their religion/culture to do so. (No worries though, I believe draft excludes people with specific religions/cultures against war or with certain disabilities.) However, if I were drafted, I would be more than happy to serve this wonderful country that has given me so much. I look at the Iraqi people and see how much they suffered under Saddam Hussein, and I look at how much we are spoiled over here, and so I would feel guilty to not go over there and help them.

    In World War II, our grandfathers were drafted to fight a war in foreign countries. No one complained - they answered the call of duty. Some even committed suicide when they were told they could not join the military because of certain disabilities. They fought hard, and more than 300,000 Americans gave their lives to liberate countries they had never before visited. Today, we are again called upon to help those in need, and I don't see how the liberation of Iraq is any different from the liberation of Europe sixty years ago.
     
  17. Real American

    Real American Banned

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    So you are saying that was ok, but you don't support fighting for someone elses freedom? Also, what part do you disagree with? In your own words you destroy your argument.
    In our dreams of world peace we would all work together for the common good. But what would we do with those people that don't want to work? I am trying to understand you, but I am not able to. You are using the Bible as an excuse to be selfish. From what I get from you, if I were in danger and needed help, you would talk to the person putting my life in danger. If that person attacked you, you would not fight back, you would sit there and talk. Then, that person would kill the both of us. Then what good have we accomplished. I realy understand your goal of preserving life. Believe me I do. However we are fighting Satan here. I want you to open your eyes and see this. We are all God's children, are you telling me you think God doesn't want you to fight for his children? You have a freeodm that blood was spilled for and yet you are not willing to share that freedom. Explain to me how that is right? You use quotes from The Bible in your arguments. God said obey the laws of your land. If the draft passes, then it is a law, will you disobey God because you don't agree with the War on Terror? One more thing before I go.....you tell me why you deserve freedom, but these children don't! http://www.operationiraqichildren.org/
     
  18. lover/young_peace

    lover/young_peace Senior Member

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    wait... who is this Satan we are fighting?

    im sorry i may have to stop talking, im not understanding this anymore.

    plus i dont think we should bring religion into this war. I'm sure you have good intentions, and you are free to believe whatever, but many people (both American and Iraqi) think they have to kill eachother because it is the will of god. If I did believe in God, Im sure he wouldn't wish death. Im not sure if im making my point, but both parties need to leave religion completely out of it. Otherwise, things get even more out of hand.

    Ahh, i doubt i make sense. I just would not want war. I am a simple thinker. I dont want murdering.
     
  19. HippieLngstckng

    HippieLngstckng Bringer of DOOM!!!

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    Lover/Young Peace, sweetie, that's all that some people hear is religion. But a lot of those people really don't understand the roots of their religion. This gentleman claims to be a Christian, a follower of Christ who is a known pacifist. This is why he was dubbed the "Prince of Peace". Peace is absolute, and there is no war for peace... BTW, you guys, remember yourselves and do not let him provoke you into being condesending, I don't care if he did it first. We are representing something bigger than ourselves here, and we want to be a proper reflection of our character. :rolleyes:

    I disagree with almost everything that you say, sir. I keep repeating myself, but here we go... Again! Sir, the Lord helps those that help themselves. We fought for OUR OWN FREEDOM. And all I am suggesting is that if the Iraqi's wanted freedom from Saddam, they outnumber him greatly, and they should have had their own "American Revolution" of sorts, and not depended on someone else to speak and fight for them. Why fight for your rights if someone else is going to do it for you?

    Sir, I do not destroy my own argument, you are not listening to my case. There are always peaceful resolutions to a problem. WE HAD NOT EXHAUSTED ALL OF OUR OPTIONS. But our country has not taken that route, SOOO... those who support our government's decision to fight a war that is not ours are more than welcome to go... but those of us who wanted peaceful resolve shouldn't have to go against our beliefs because someone else made the decision that it's a good idea to go over there. By the way, you know that the people you are speaking of do not serve our God, correct? While it is true that we are all God's children, these people have chosen to serve someone else. May I cite Commandment Number One? Allah's people are also the same people who curse Israel..."I will bless those who bless you (Israel), and curse those who curse you." And if I, personally, were attacked, the first thing I would do is NOT retaliate, I would get myself to a safe place, and be sure that I was safe and secure, not in a position to be attacked again... But as someone who is NOT a fighter, by any means of the word, that is just what I would do (I have shown false bravado in the past, and gotten my a** kicked, excuse my language :rolleyes: ). This just adds to my belief that we should strenghten our borders and place more of a concern on internal safety. I do want freedom for the Iraqi people, but in your own words, "what would we do with those people that don't want to work?" Fighting for freedom is hard work. I support fighting for freedom, but I think that it is the Iraqi's role to fight, and we may help through other means of support. As for the laws of my nation, the laws of my nation are supposed to be decided by it's people, and I hope that "we" outnumber "you" (speaking of our political ideology). It isn't that I deserve freedom and they don't (nice try, sir... *grin* :p ), it is that ours has already been won, paid for in American blood. I will not support paying American blood for Iraqi freedom. We really are fighting Satan, sir, but as long as we are using his tool of war we can never win. I never said that the path that I chose is easy, sir. I said I believe that it is correct :D .

    Someone else said it before but I'll say it again, because it's so perfect:
    "The pain of war cannot excede the world of aftermath" - Led Zepplin
     
  20. GOB1029

    GOB1029 Member

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    if the two of you believed in Jesus as your savior, you would enter the kingdom of heaven, and, that's a blow to satan, because he gets two less people for himself. now, i'm not saying we should commit suicide to go to heaven, i'm just saying we shouldn't decide when other people should die.
     

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