Pornography isn't degrading.

I haven't read this whole thread, but here's my view.

I love porn. I don't feel like it's degrading or like it's hurting women in any way. Women choose to be in porno. Heck I'd be a porn star in a heart beat if I had the body for it! Get paid to be laid? That sounds pretty fun to me

I don't understand how someone can't enjoy porn. It's like the HOTTEST stuff ever. The raunchier, kinkier, the better.

And yes, it usually places women in submissive roles. Despite being a very dominant person, I happen to enjoy watching videos of sexually submissive females. I don't see anything wrong with that!

Without porn, my masturbation experiences would be pretty lackluster. I for one am glad we have tons of readily available porn!

 

*claps* Nicely said and bonus points for bringing the thread back on topic!!

 

Yes, unfortunately the thread did stray a bit due to personal attacks. But the point I was trying to make is that complaining that porn is bad because men get off on the domination of women is silly, because the very act of sex between a man and a woman generally involves the dominance of the male. Saying or implying that this is somehow wrong is thus, in a sense, an anti-sex position.

Jedi advanced the argument, like others, that it's only "domination" to a prejudiced eye, and that sex can be perceived without domination without certain biases. It's also true that some men like to be submissive during sex, and that most men are to some degree submissive during sex. But the point that I was making is that because the man is physically stronger and penetrates the woman, he is dominant.

There was also a debate earlier as to whether porn is degrading. I think porn is degrading to women because they are treated horribly to turn on perverted men. But whether porn is degrading to women is a different topic than whether porn should be legal. Some women on this thread want porn banned. Maggie Sugar has even argued that porn promotes sexual violence against women, and has a study which supposedly supports this position.

What I have to say to Maggie Sugar is that I read an article about a prominent Belgian journalist who took advantage of women from Morocco by promising to marry them and posted their photos over the internet in sexual acts. In Morocco pornography is illegal. Because of the culture of the country and the illegality of it, many of these women have committed suicide, been killed by relatives (victims of "honor killings"), and jailed. We could make laws to protect women who have had pictures posted without their consent, but Morocco's treatment of women, like many nations opposed to pornography, must be taken into account.

Nations strictly against pornography treat women in many ways worse than the very tolerant West. It's easy to forget this when we dwell on textbooks and the rhetoric from women's studies classes.

If we make pornography illegal, it might be difficult to escape from having to punish women who, due to poverty or desperation or plain stupidity, have sold themselves sexually to an underground market (just like prostitutes do).

 

pfft here in the US pornography cannot be made illegal because it is freedom of expression. Anyone who thinks pornography should be illegal is a fascist.

 

If it were illegal then it would be the sex slave industry that everyone is bitching about. Women would be kidnapped and put into snuff films. It being legal keeps it safe. They have mandentory disease testing and everything.

 

It was a reaction, the statement could be taken in more than one way, that’s why I was asking for clarification.
It could be taken as …
“it's reasonable to assume he can buck you off” if she imposes "blow & hand jobs”
or it could be taken the way I took it… sometimes we read too much into these things, it’s what keeps the forums alive .
Hopefully you meant he could buck her off if she imposes bj's/hj's, that’s what u meant right .

 

After giving it some thought, I think it's degrading both men and women because it objectifys both...

But...if they want to do it...it's their porrogative.

 

See, I knew you'd start agreeing with me.

 

Uh...where in that statement did I agree with you.

It's a job...a degrading job, but a job at the same time...at least they aren't living off of my tax money : -/

 

WTF does this have to do with anything I said? I never said anything about legalization. You can't compare a Completely Muslim Oriented, very misogynist society in AFRICA (where, porn or not, infibulation is still practices, unlike Islam in the Middle East, where it is not used) and compare it to a Democracy, where people have a lot more CHOICES.

As for Heron's "snuff film" analogy. Actually, like Ritual Satanic Abuse, despite lots of press, there has been NO evidence that either exist. There is NO evidence that actual, made for audience snuff films were ever made. HOW you can compare people not using porn, to having them then turn to "snuff films" is ludicrcrous. It is about CHOICES. And IMO, and the opinion of many thinking people who have IMAGINATIONS in bed, porn is UNneccesary, and is degrading, and a good partner, and a good healthy mind makes porn unneccesary. Hey, if you need it, that ain't MY fault. No matter how pathetic wanting porn is, it is not a neccesity. Try your imagination. Try a good partner. . Womyn who "like" porn, try RESPECTING yours self. Dudes who think they need it; Try RESPECTING womyn. I suspect most of you (and I KNOW in one case this is absolutely true) have serious self esteem problems. Work on loving yourself, telling yourself that you DO NOT deserve to be degraded, and maybe you will heal from past abuses, and not need this stuff.

JMO. If my opinion, as a womyn WITH self esteem feels, somehow offends you, that is YOUR problem. If you had either self esteem or respect for womyn, you wouldn't need, want or want to participate in the degrading world of the Sex "Industry." IF you really think I am WRONG, then you would be able to write my comments off, with NO second thought. If my comments anger you, then you DO know there is a problem with liking or "needing" porn, that you somehow need to defend.

Only those who are not feeling somehow I, and others who do not think porn is healthy are RIGHT, will not be offended.

 

OK, I may have misinterpreted your posts. But there are feminists who want porn banned, and from what I recall they use similar arguments as you do.

And part of having more choices is in the ability to choose to participate in or view porn.

If it were true that people who view porn have self-esteem issues, surely some social scientists would have picked up on that by now and shown that to be true by conducting studies with control groups?

I do not defend porn at all. I am merely skeptical of the study you cited.

What you are also forgetting is that men are much more visual than women. This is why porn is much more popular among men than women.

 

You don't know me either, so don't call me stupid, ignorant, or anything else derogatory. Also, I'm don't treat people like dirt; I tell them what I think, no more, no less. I do my best to make sure my posts don't make personal attacks (unlike you, for example). If there's anything negative it's simply an attack on their opinion, not on them. There might be a few exceptions, but like I said, few. Also, that last comment is pleasently juvenile. Pot calling the kettle black?

 

Are you going to cry about it now?

Get back to the topic...everyone else has.

 

Uh, because you interpreted ME as a "feminist" you ASSUMED that ALL people you put into a box think exactly the same? And that, even though I never said so, You assumed I thought the way YOU interpreted ALL people that YOU put into one group think the same?

As for "you were saying what 'the feminists say'" These same arguments and data are used by Doctors, Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Humanitarians, Child Advocates, Researchers and Thinking people of all types. "Feminists" Didn't make this stuff up, it's what's in the literature and the arguments about what is wrong with Porn are similar to every THINKING group of people.


Make porn Illegal? No. What I am saying is that healthy people don't NEED or even want porn. Even less healthy people participate in it's manufacture. That's it. And it is suppported by plenty of studies and evidence.

As for "Men are more visual." Got a reference on that? I say bullshit. If men were more visual, many more than do might notice subtle differences in the appearance changes of those around them (the classic "I got a new hairstyle and he didn't notice." This is simplistic way of saying what I mean, but you get the point. Men are NOT "more visual" than womyn.) and it has been proven that womyn actually have better visual acuity than men, especially when it comes to color and detail. (It has been shown that womyn see thousands more variations in color than men do, this is a result of womyn being the Gatherers, and having to know minute variation in color, to determine ripeness of fruits and vegetables ect.) There are NO studies showing men have better vision than womyn, womyn actually notice more visual cues and details than men do. This URBAN LEGEND that "men are more visual" does nothing to make porn somehow more understandable. What about all the healthy men who DON'T like porn? What about men with POOR VISION who dig porn? What' their excuse? Sorry, the "men are more visual" excuse holds no water at all.

 

No. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt, which is why I was more polite to you than many people outside of this forum who consider themselves feminists and non-feminists would be. You said people who enjoy porn have low self-esteem. It so happens that millions upon millions of people enjoy porn. Virtually everyone has watched porn at some time. Porn is even subtly encouraged on this Web site in the "Love and Sex" forum with all of the nude and even blatantly sexual photos. So in essence you are saying, because hippies tolerate porn more than most people, that hippies have lower self-esteem than non-hippies. Never before have I been on a Web site where people not only talk openly about porn, but about how much they enjoy it.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because if it is true that porn causes sexual violence against women, that's grounds for porn's banning! If you could prove to me that porn causes big jumps in statistics in crime against women, that means porn is harming society. When society gets harmed by something, politicians are generally quick to consider imposing laws to protect society. That's one of the reasons why government exists: to protect life, liberty and property.

So, if porn causes significant harm to women, why should it be legal? I am curious as to your answer. I assumed you might have an argument we have not considered before.

You said people who enjoy porn have low self-esteem. You never cited any evidence for this claim. This takes aim at thousands of members of Hipforums.

As far as I can tell, no one "needs" porn. People can survive without porn. Those who "need" porn (due to psychological addiction), if they exist, are obviously very ill. No one disagrees with you on this very obvious point.

I don't have a reference off-hand, but note that I agree your skepticism is warranted. You should not take what I claim as true when I fail to provide evidence; likewise, no one should believe your claim that people who watch porn have low self-esteem without evidence.

I will in the near-future dig through the internet to learn more about this. I don't hold onto any dogmatic beliefs on the issue of porn, because I neither support nor am I against it.

 

I find myself watching porn only when I don't have a girlfriend. Your blanket statement that healthy people don't want to watch porn is pretty asinine. So does that make those who watch porn 'sick' in some kind of mental sense?

 

I didn't say "sick." Don't put words in my mouth. My comment was that people who have more self esteem don't really need or want porn. People who work in the Industry have been shown again and again to have serious sexual problems, mostly caused by sexual abuse as children.

*sigh* "Proving" one thing "causes" an other, with no other input, in a complex society, to the point where it could be "banned" is nearly impossible. If you read a lot of psychological journal articles, you see it is VERY difficult to say "this ALWAYS causes this" There are LINKS between heavy pornography watching, and desentization to harm and pain caused to womyn (and children, if it is child porn.) There are LINKS between societies with heavy pornography and sex crimes. (For years, people used to use Japan as an example of LOTS of violent porn, and few sex crimes. Well, the reality is that there ARE many sex crimes in the populations in Japan who use this porn, BUT, as womyn are treated, traditionally, reporting sex crimes DISHONORS both her and her family, so it looked like there were no sex crimes, and there are a lot!)

It it obvious that porn desentitizes, but to make laws against it is very difficult. I am not a law maker, so I can't really make a judgement on that. I am schooled in Psychology, and there are NOT links, in REAL Psychological literatue between sexual health and moderate to heavy pornography watching.

Like I said, if you get OFFENDED by people who don't care for porn, or those who speak the truth about the porn industry, how can you get upset at people who are OFFENDED at the way womyn and men are treated IN porn?

A LOT of people have low self esteem. I don't see how this "takes aim" at anyone. It isn't an indictment. But maybe a wakeup call to do something about one's view of the world and how one uses one's time, and how one feels about sex and those who one has it with.

 

Besides if I DO go to the trouble of furnishing you with actual data, will you just disregard it as "feminist propaganda?" Seems like every time someone asks for data, and gets it (and it supports something they don't want to hear about) they attack the source, or say it is biased. I am not going to waste more of my time, if this is what you are going to do. You have already ASSUMED I had ONE opinion, based on an ASSUMPTION that "all feminists think alike" and the assumption that I am a "feminist."

 

Some interesting data from a Sentate Subcommitee.

There are more than 1000 webpages on this subject, so it may take a while. Do you really want me to continue? Because I can.

Here is a description of what a child, used by the "sex idustry" went through. As this is very disturbing, I will only post the link, not the content. WARNING, if you are sensitive to sex abuse, you may not want to read this. But, there are some people on this thread who really NEED to.


http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/174_2002-04-23/han174_1015-E.htm

 

Although I find a couple things wrong IMHO in that, it's not propaganda.
"Sen. Brownback noted that a recent study indicated that 6 percent of the respondents fulfilled the criteria for full-fledged pornography addicts. "

So from another study that showed these observations in prolonged exposure to pornography:
Enhanced sexual callousness toward women;
The trivialization of rape as a criminal offense and of nonviolent forms of the sexual abuse of children;
Increased self-acknowledged rape proclivity in men;
Doubts about the value of marriage as an essential social institution; and
<LI>Diminished desire for offspring.

How many of the people in that second study were "full-fledged pornography addicts"? Obviously, if someone can get 'addicted' to porn in the first place they've got some issues. I find it hard to believe these observations are widespread at all.

This one made me laugh though:"Judith Reisman, advisor at the California Protective Parents Association, affirmed that “pornographic visual images imprint and alter the brain, triggering an instant, involuntary, but lasting, biochemical memory trail, arguably, subverting the First Amendment by overriding the cognitive speech process.”

LMFAO, the sounds of the grateful dead have subverted all of my rights, i am a slave to the music. Please, send me to GD rehab.

Anyways, I've met fucked up people who I think fulfill all of those observations from the second part, but I think it was more like a lack of proper role models and/or parenting. I don't think it's really to be blamed on porn.