Petrodollar system.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by storch, Mar 6, 2019.

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  1. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Storch

    So you don’t know who ‘they’ (the producers of the soap opera) are or are you just not saying?

    I ask because that seems to be the linchpin on which you have based your ideas that there is some secret plan organised by secret people.

    So who ‘they’ are seems very germane.

    They seem like the most importnat thing in this discussion but the one you repeately will not address - why is that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  2. quark

    quark Parts Unknown

    There you go again talking about the producers of the soap opera. “He brought it up!” *points finger*...

    Also, you seemed to have mentioned it more times than him at this point... So in a way, he produced a soap opera starring you as the guy that repeats his script.

    Fuck, if I’ve made you respond by trolling, imagine what those big bad producers could do to your mind?
     
  3. storch

    storch The compliant

    Who would you say convinced you that other countries did not have to acquire U.S. dollars to purchase their oil, thereby creating an artificial demand for the dollar?

    It seems that your idea that U.S. dollars aren't necessary to purchase oil has been found to be wrong, and you are reluctant to admit it. But it's being shoved in your face nonetheless.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    CALGARY – When Prime Minister Stephen Harper, standing alongside Chinese Premier Li Keqiang in Beijing’s Great Hall of the People, announced last month that a Renminbi currency trading hub would soon open in Canada, Calgary’s oil and gas sector was paying particular attention.

    “I think it probably brings us to a level playing field with the U.S., because right now everything goes through U.S. dollars,” said Greg Stringham, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers vice-president of oil sands and markets.

    The Chinese currency hub, the first of its kind in either North or South America, will allow Canadian companies to deal directly in Renminbi – a move that is expected to save importers and exporters billions of dollars in transaction fees, especially in foreign exchange transactions in and out of the U.S. dollar, while also eliminating an extra layer of uncertainty in the foreign exchange market. For the first time, the Canadian dollar will be valued directly against China’s currency.

    The hub would also allow Canadian energy companies to number among the very few producers in the world to sell oil in a currency other than the U.S. dollar. In August, Russia’s Gazprom Neft began accepting Rubles or Chinese currency for oil sales off its eastern coast. Russian president Vladmir Putin has recently described the international oil trade as the “dollar dictatorship
    .”

    ‘Level playing field’: Why a Chinese currency hub will help boost Canada’s oil sector

    What do you imagine Stringham is saying. Read the boldened print. Does that tell you anything about whether or not other oil producers sell their oil in other than U.S. dollars?.
    ______________________________________________

    From the same article:

    As University of Calgary Haskayne School of Business professor Bob Schulz explained, virtually all of the oil trading around the world is denominated in U.S. dollars, thanks in large part to “petro-dollar” agreements struck in the 1970s between the U.S. and OPEC countries like Saudi Arabia. The U.S. agreed to provide the Saudis and other countries protection in exchange for OPEC members selling their oil in U.S. dollars.
    ______________________________________________

    Now, in order to deny that the petrodollar system is what it is, you can add professor Shulz to the growing list of other conspiracy theorists whom you must believe don't understand what you do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  4. quark

    quark Parts Unknown

    Fuck, I just realized I’m sitting here in China provoking Americans (assuming) to go at it.

    Guess it’s all true.
     
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  5. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    I'd settle for some proof that it was all part of a sinister plot, and that's as big a deal as Storch thinks it is. .An alternative view is Why The Petro-Dollar Is A Myth, And The Petro-Yuan Mere Fantasy
    That part, I believe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    stormountainman likes this.
  6. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    So what are you doing in China? I found it a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
     
  7. storch

    storch The compliant

    Oh, it was just a plot to give the dollar artificial value at the expense of the rest of the world. Don't let the invasion and destruction of a country, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians for the purpose of maintaining that artificial value/demand cause you to see the deal as anything less than upright.
     
  8. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Storch

    I’m not denying that petrol is traded in dollars but what you seem to be saying is that this was ‘arranged’ by a secret group from the shadows who you seem to imply have been working to this end from at least the 1940’s

    So your whole view of petrodollars seems coloured even dictated by the view that it was arranged by this secret cabal so that seems to be the most important thing for you in this issue

    AND you seem to be claiming that you know who these shadow people are.

    So why are you so seemingly ashamed to share your information - have you so little confidence in it?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  9. storch

    storch The compliant

    So you're saying that you now understand that the dollar is being propped up by the deal that was made in the mid 70s between the U.S. and the Saudis; a deal that gave the U.S. an unfair advantage over the countries of the world subject to that deal?

    Further, are you agreeing that after Iraq stepped out of line and began selling its oil in other than dollars, it was attacked, after which the U.S. switched Iraq's oil trade back to dollars?

    Where did I say this began in the 1940s?
     
  10. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Storch

    LOL - Are you now saying you don’t think things were ‘arranged’ and there is no secret group working from the shadows?

    Again - why are you so seemingly ashamed to share your information have you so little confidence in it?
     
  11. storch

    storch The compliant

    You forgot to answer my questions.

    Anyway, since the petrodollar system was not publicized, the creators must not have wanted you to know the details of it. Dice's description of the petrodollar is a good illustration of peoples' ignorance about it. And now you step up and expose your ignorance of the fact that the dollar is being propped up by the arrangement that was made in the mid 70s between the U.S. and the Saudis; a deal that gave the U.S. an unfair advantage over the countries of the world subject to that deal. This means that you are also unaware that it was when Iraq stepped out of line and began selling its oil in other than dollars that the U.S. overruled the Security Council and attacked, after which (three months later) the U.S. switched Iraq's oil trade back to dollars?

    So now you have no excuse for remaining ignorant.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  12. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    You seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker the Mises Institute/Ron Paul view of reality. Elite conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen and often look good from a distance. They give True Believers a feeling they are "in the know" while nonbelievers are ignorant--a political version of Gnosticism. And no doubt some of them are true, or contain grains of truth. Humans being what they are, and politics being what it is, I'm sure at least a thousand conspiracies go on daily out of view of us poor slobs who are "we the people". Surely if we knew the intrigues the Trump cabal is engaged in it would curl the hair of political neophytes. Game of Thrones in a modern setting. We can assume that campaign donors with the big bucks don't back political candidates out of the kindness of their hearts, and that it's more than a coincidence, for instance, that the recent transfer of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem fulfills a longtime dream of Trump's biggest campaign donor, Sheldon Adelson. The elites are not a monolith. They jockey for position behind the scenes--the Koch brothers vs. the Mercers vs. the Adelsons : The three ultra-rich families battling for control of the Republican party The Murdochs and Fox must fit in there somewhere. And of course, on the other side, we have the ubiquitous George Soros, whom the Republicans blame for just about everything wrong in the world, from Antifa and Black Lives Matter to he pursuit of a globalist agenda in Guatemala. .But as the saying goes, the Devil is in the details, and we may never know the details because conspirators are good at covering their tracks.There is also the Ron Paul, Murray Rothbard, the Mises Institute and the Libertarians have their own agendas which are different from the public interest. Nation-states are no different. They tend to pursue their national interests, defined in term of power--which is awful except in comparison to the alternative of pursuing moralistic/ideological agendas not consistent with national interest. The latter seems always to get us into trouble.

     
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  13. storch

    storch The compliant

    You obviously believe that saying this in some way disproves what I've shown you concerning the petrodollar system. But it doesn't. It's just you talking about nothing.
     
  14. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Storch

    But you still do not say who are the ‘producers of the soap opera’ or are you just saying these ‘secret’ people are just the thousands (tens of thousands) involved in the foreign and domestic policies of the US and Saudi Arabia?

    You seemed to be suggesting this was all arranged but then you seem to say that what happened in Bretton Woods wasn’t arranged by this shadowy group but if the bancor system had been set up as envisioned by the Keynesians then there would be no petrol dollars today.

    The thing is that there is a difference between -

    History - the reality - that muddles along buffered by events and circumstance where if there are any great plans they seldom if ever survive contact with the actuality

    And

    Conspiracy theory – a belief - that has secret actors pulling strings from the shadows to an orderly international plan.

    *

    I think the US made a big mistake at Bretton Woods it could have been exceptional (as Americans often think of themselves) and done a lot of good but instead it chose to be normal and like any great power tried for hegemony.

    It wasn’t conspiracy it was political opportunism and in doing so it was acting no differently than the imperial nations that had gone before it, not conspiracy just history.

    So rather than choosing Keynes’ bancor it tried to make the US dollar the ‘world currency’, this wasn’t conspiracy it was the stupidity of a country with imperial dreams just like all the others before it.

    The dream was of hegemony what resulted was the Nixon shock.

    It also didn’t want to take on the bancor system in the 1940’s because it was the biggest owning nation after WWII (rather than a debtor one) and didn’t want to spend its surplus (on places like Europe or China for example) but as many have pointed out the US would probably really like the bancor system to be brought in now but China would probably very much disagree.

    It was an opportunity missed but that is history the thing is can the US learn from it?

    *

    People that see conspiracy say that the US government lied about there been WMD’s in Iraq (then make up shadowy cabals to explain it) BUT do you think that 19th century British governments never lied to promote their imperial objectives? And it’s not like the US government didn’t have form, to just pluck something out of the air look up the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

    The President lied to start war

    The occupation of Iraq wasn’t conspiracy it was hubris (as was Vietnam).

    *

    When the US Saudi deal on petrodollars is looked as history rather than as some overarching conspiracy then it makes perfect sense why wouldn’t an American government want to try and broker such a deal.

    The history of the British Empire is full of such deals and just look what we did to China through the opium ‘trade’.

    *

    As I’ve said some Americans want to see the US as exceptional a break in the chain of history – it is not - it is just another chapter in history, another flawed power that wanted it all and did great harm to itself in doing so.

    But I think some want to carry on thinking it is exceptional so they make up excuses for it, that Americans are being manipulated by a shadow governments and secret cabals which lets the people off the hook as accomplices in the ‘wrongdoings’.
     
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  15. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Okie

    And as Adam Smith observed capitalism seems to actively encourage it – “‘People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the publick, or in some contrivance to raise prices”

    The thing is are such actions conspiracy or natural self interest – are they outside of history (hidden in the shadows) or part of it? You see most of these acts of self-interest are recorded directly or can be put together through indirect evidence, they are history.

    The kind of thing much beloved by conspiracy nuts is the totally hidden conspiracy that only the cleverest and aware (themselves) can ‘see’.

    I met on guy who told me of a conspiracy that if true involved the murder of thousands and he knew all about it and was trying to expose it – at which point I thought well why haven’t they just killed you?

    I began a thread on this back in 2008

    Conspiracy or lobbying?

    Conspiracy or lobbying?

    It came out of something I’d said about the establishment and the red scares in the US - It wasn’t so much a conspiracy as a group’s conscious reaction to a perceived threat to it ideological and material position.

    *

    The thing is, are a group of wealthy individuals that set up lobby groups to promote tax cuts that will benefit them more than the rest of society, getting involved in a conspiracy or just natural self interest?

    If some corporations that manufacture weapons systems sponsor lobby groups that highlight possible threats and promote defence spending, is it a conspiracy or prudent business practice?

    If people of a certain political viewpoint get the financial backing to set up a lobby group to promote those views from like minded individuals or institutions is that conspiracy or legitimate political action?

    If politically biased media outlets use ‘experts’ from these lobbying groups to promote particular political policies and agendas, are they being conspiratorial or genuinely trying to ‘educate’ and ‘inform’ the public?

    But what if a political movement targets a group to attack through the lobby system and it result in political policies that lead to suppression and repression? Is that a conspiracy not in the sense of secret cables but of a ‘conspiracy of the like minded’?


    *

    I’m saying it depends how you see things and it is a lot easier to shrug things off as a ‘conspiracy’ rather than look deeper, find the evidence, do the studying and work out the motivations of the actors involved - which is history and often leads to understandings you might not like.

    There are many in the UK that glory in Britain’s imperial past (it is one of the things that underpins Brexit) and some bemoan the ‘liberal conspiracy’ of historians that have uncovered the often disturbing truths about it.
     
  16. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Well there have been several ideas put forward for who’s involved in Storch’s conspiracy -

    Zionists

    Jews

    Rothschild’s

    British

    Saudis

    Anymore for anymore?

    I’m putting forward

    House Lannister

    Anyone with a HQ in a volcano.

    Paddington Bear and the Peruvian cartel
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  17. storch

    storch The compliant

    I just showed in no uncertain terms what the petrodollar system is and with it does. Nothing you've said has taken away from that. However, one poster in this thread thought it was just the way oil is priced. Another poster posted a link in which the author claimed that there is no petrodollar. This shows that no one here so far has shown any understanding of why it is and what it does. That's because they've been believing something other than the truth about it. One of them even posted a link to a guy who said that there is no petrodollar. They bought into the soap opera. They're oblivious to the fact that the petrodollar setup was a scam designed to rip off the countries of the world.

    And you. I've posted this before, but apparently it bears repeating:

    In 1944, at the Bretton Woods conference, a new fixed exchange rate was established. All global currencies were pegged to the U.S. dollar. The reason that the rest of the world went along with this arrangement is because if at any time a nation didn’t feel comfortable with the dollar, they could easily convert their dollar holdings into gold at a rate of thirty-five dollars per ounce. Of course, this created a global demand for dollars, which gives the Federal government the “right” to print more dollars. I’m sure that you’re not ignorant of the fact that Washington’s preferred method of dealing with its economic problems is to print more dollars.

    By 1971, with a two-hundred billion dollar price tag on the Viet Nam war, other countries were getting nervous because of the growing imbalance between U.S. gold reserves and U.S. debt. The U.S. did not have the money to pay its debts. To add insult to injury, its gold reserves were at an all-time low because other countries started asking for gold in exchange for their U.S. dollars. But instead of doing something about its debt, the U.S. continued to rack up more debt, which in turn increased other countries’ demand for more gold from the U.S. In response, and in contravention of the Bretton Woods agreement, Washington decided to end the convertibility of the dollar to gold.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So, due to its own incompetence, the U.S. could no longer afford to pay its debts. So, it came up with a solution. It arranged to basically put at tax on the rest of the world by forcing them to use dollars to pay for oil through an arrangement with the OPEC nations. And the U.S. has been getting a free ride ever since. If you need me to explain how that free ride works, just ask me and I'll tell you . . . again. Then Iraq decided to break that arrangement by selling their oil in other that dollars. So the U.S. paid them a visit, destroyed their country, killed their president, and switched the currency for oil back to dollars. But according to the soap opera narrative, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and it would be foolish to wait for that mushroom cloud. Everyone tuned in to the soap opera narrative and sucked it up like good spectators.

    Then Syria and Iran threaten to stop using the dollar, and guess what? That's right, they need regime change. But it's just a coincidence, isn't it?
     
  18. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Storch

    But are you talking about history or conspiracy theory (please read my post to you above) you bring up the ‘soap opera’ again and you have talked before about there been secret ‘producers’ of that soap opera – so again I ask you who do you think those ‘producers’ are?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  19. ZenKarma

    ZenKarma Shuffling Realities Staff Member Super Moderator

    It's all delicious. Petrodollars are the gourmet staple of the wealthy. I love all this going back and forth, for awhile.
     
  20. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    You forgot the biggies: the Trilateral Comission, the Bilderberg Group and the Illuminati(not to mention the Freemasons.
    Illuminati: The Bilderberg conspiracy
    Controlling the Global Economy: Bilderberg, the Trilateral Commission and the Federal Reserve
    The New World Order, The Bilderberg Plan – Control Oil, Control People
    Part 3 | Global Power and Global Government | Controlling the Global Economy: Bilderberg, the Trilateral Commission and the Federal Reserve
    The first and last ones last one make the crucial link to the Fed.
    The notion that the United States and the rest of the world is ruled by an international conspiracy of bankers bent on world domination is an article of faith in four related conspiracy theories: (1) the Tea Party anti-government right wing populist variant of John Birchers Gary Allen and Larry Abraham in their book None Dare Call It Conspiracy, carried forward by conservatives like Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, and Glen Beck.; (2) the Christian apocalyptic “end time” evangelicals building on the work of Mary M. Davison in The Profound Revolution and The Secret Government of the United States and coming to national prominence with Pat Robertson’s best-selling book The New World Order and the Oneness Pentecostal preacher Irvin Baxter’s Endtime Ministries; (3) the anti-Semitic Right following Eustace Mullins” The Federal Reserve Conspiracy and The Secrets of the Federal Reserve, attributing the Fed to an international Jewish conspiracy controlled by “Rothschild central banks”; and (4) the gold standard libertarians like Ron Paul in his book End.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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