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yeah their are mites which are animals, but their are non-animals too. like bacteria and other creatures that aren't animals.

 

which is why i said you kill living LIFE, not animals when you wash your hands.

The fact is, almost everything we do displaces life and kills it. From the houses we live in, the lawns we mow, the gardens we grow to the cars we drive. There is no getting around that.

There is no way to live in complete harmony with other animals. No matter how you live, you will either directly or indirectly harm animals and other living life. People can cut down as much as they can, but there is no way to completely eliminate animal suffering. It is a cruel part of nature we MUST accept. There is nothing more humane about a cheetah devouring a gazelle while its still alive, then a bull who gets its neck slashed because the bolt to the head that was meant to kill it missed the spot. People have this weird facade that everything in nature lives in peace, the lions and gazelles frolick together, the snakes and the mice dance together and sing kumbaya together. There is nothing humane about nature. We can try our best to be humane, but in the end, we can do only so much.

 

Absolutely. However this is entirely compatible with the goal of the vegetarian - to do all we can to reduce suffering.

If you accept your argument that kiling is inevitable, and therefore something about which we should not be concerned, then why not kill other humans when it pleases us?

 

For the US? The declaration of independence gives a nice reason why not..and for people that arent US citizens..the UN's declaration of the rights of man. No one has the right to kill another man without being attacked or in danger.

I never said we shouldnt be concerned about it. We must accept that for humans to live, some animal life must die.

 

The fact that something is written on a piece of paper doesn't make it morally correct. If you want to distinguish between animal and human life, then you need to create a rational framework for this. Are you arguing that because we're 'superior' to animals, we therefore have the right to kill them? If so, the surely a normal human being is 'superior' to a brain damaged human being? Do we therefore have the right to kill them?

Of course. That's nature. Nobody would argue with that. However, it's also a part of nature that we have developed morality, and the ability to understand that the needless killing of any life is wrong. Why then should we not seek to minimise the amount of death that we inevitably cause?

 

Who are you to decide what is morally correct for society or anyone? We are a nation, and so is your nation, a nation that is based on the rule of law. To kill a human is against the law, and no human is more superior to another. Here, let me quote the declaration of independence for you. "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

As i believe in this statement, all humans are equal. Someone is not better because they arent mentally retarded. Furthermore, it states that everyone has every human has the right to LIFE...so no, i wont condone killing humans indiscriminately.

Yes, we have advanced brains that allow to believe and formulate many ideas. Now what % of people believe that killing animals to eat is wrong? a TINY TINY minority. I'm not, and i'm sure most people arent for indiscriminate killing of animals. Eating their food is not needless killing. Hunting for the heck of it is needless killing.

 

And who are you? Why should I give any more credibility to your moral arguments than I do to my own?

LMAO, the law can kiss my ass. So governments never make mistakes, huh? Laws are always correct and fair, huh?

Quote it all you want. It's of no interest to me.

So if cows all agreed that killing cows was wrong, are you suggesting we should accept their wisdom?

Ummm... around 10% in most Western countries, actually. Hardly tiny tiny. But still, at one time a tiny tiny minority thought that slavery was wrong. Should we have respected that position simply because it was the will of the majority?

You don't need to kill animals in order to eat. Or if you're going to bring up your argument about field mice again, then let me qualify that a bit more. It's possible for us to reduce the number of animals that are killed in order for us to eat without it having any negative effect upon us. If you eat meat, you're killing to satisfy the physical sensation of taste... you're not killing out of 'need'. I'm not judging you for this, but it's a plain and simple fact.

 

Yes, PETA is for the rights of members of the ANIMAL kingdom. Not members of the bacteria, protist, plant, and fungi kingdom.

Megara...so basically you're saying that since we accidently kill animals everyday we should be able to do it all the time on purpose. Nice analogy there dude. That shows a deep mental disturbance on your part.

 

I agree. i was thinking about joining peta before seeing the holocost comparison commercial. I do not belive animals should suffer, but I do not think we should belittle the millions of people who were killed by Hitler, who by the way, was a vegetarian.

 

who am i? i am claiming what society believes, i am not using my own opinion.

what law exactly are you infering is wrong? That we dont have inalienable rights?

When you can communicate with cows and determine that they think its acceptable to kill other cows, then we'll talk about that question, alright?


You dont "NEED" to eat any one thig to subsist except water. You need to eat certain vitamins and minerals to have a healthy diet. How one goes about that is a difference of opinion. Many things omnis and vegans eat require animals to die. How much depends. Would you see any difference between a man who eats only meat from cows instead of chickens? Many more chickens die a year than cows...is he doing his part more because less cows die to feed him than if he would have eaten chicken?

This is such a stupid argument. Almost everything we does displaces and kills animals...Its insane for anyone who is apart of an industrial nation to claim he is doing his part better by eating non meat products. No one needs to live in an industrial nation, no one needs to drive a car(or any pollutant inducing transportation). We all choose what to do in our lives to "satisfy our own tastes." To claim someone is doing better becaue he eats one less pork chop or kills a few less animals is a total joke. Unless you live in a cave and are eating berries to subsist, please dont tell me you're doing everything you can to reduce animals suffering. You are reducing animal suffering only to a level which allows you to still live a comfortable life. You arent doing everything possible to reduce animal suffering, and to say so is a complete joke. I wont respect someone more who lives in the society we do and truly thinks he's doing something great because he doesnt eat meat. How many animals were displaced and killed to build the factory that produced your clothes? Your computer? How much earth was torn up to bring you internet access? You are benefting from all these things require animals to suffer. You dont care, you willingly continue to use them and promote more destruction of the earth. Vegetarians need to get off their pedestal and keep quiet and live their own lives or move to a cave and eat berries.

also, where did you get your 10% from? I believe 3.5% of the people in canada are vegan/vege...2.5% in the US..... In britain its about 5.6%

http://atn-riae.agr.ca/europe/e3350.htm there is a link that says 3.4 million were vegans in the UK in 2001..

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html - you can find that 60 million is the pop of the UK in 2001

I'm curious where your 10% came from. Btw, i'd consider 94 an overwhelming majority and 6% a tiny, tiny number...but hey, maybe since you guys have a parliament, a small number like 6% can actually turn out to be a real strong number


Let the vegetarian onslaught now commence....*hides*

 

if the argument is so stupid why do you continue to argue? why not leave and laugh at us who are pitiful and stupid, needing to argue to make ourselves feel good. who's the stupid one here? the ones arguing for what they belive in or the one arguin for something he thinks is stupid and doesn't matter? it really isn't your place to judge us, the almighty will judge us on her actions, it is her place to judge, not yours and even if you don't belive in any higher power it is still not your place to judge us, we don't seek you out, you come here. and who cares about the law, are all laws based or morallity or whats right? I just exeded the speed limit and pirated music, and jaywalked! all in one day! guess I should get the chair.

 

So what society believes is right is always right? That's no logic at all, just an excuse.

I'm arguing that a law is does not have moral authority just by virtue of its being a law. If I remember correctly, it's not that long ago that black people didn't have 'inalienable rights' in the US.

Not really. But if you want to hide behind sarcasm as an excuse for avoiding a debate, then that's up to you.

Bullshit. Drink only water, and you die. Eat only vegetables, and you live. That's no analogy at all.

But it's you who seems to be fixating on the idea that veggies think they're 'better' than anyone else. I certainly don;t feel any kind of superiority. I simply think it's ethically more desirable to try and reduce the amount of death that we cause. Why do you have such a problem with that? As far as I'm concerned, a person who eats meat and goes out to third world countries with aid convoys is also taking a moral stand. His battle is different from mine, but it doesn't make either of us better or worse than the other. For some reason though, you seem to take vegetarianism as a personal affront.

There you go again. You;re the one talking in terms of 'better'. Not me.

I never did. I said I'm doing as much as I'm able. The amount to which I'm able is bound up with my personal limitations. I make no claim to perfection.

Partially true. This is why I don't believe that vegetarians occupy an exclusive moral high ground. However, if I was simply doing all that I could without threatening my comfortable life, then I'd still be eating meat. It'd be a whole load easier.

You seem determined to put words into my mouth. I never said any such thing. You seem incapable of debating this subject without getting extremely aggressive and irrational.

And you're still at it. I don't think I'm 'doing something great'. I think I'm doing what I can. Which is more than some, and less than others. Again, why do you insist on getting so worked up about this? And why do you attribute attitudes to me that I've never given you any indication that I possess? Come to that, why do you keep posting in this forum if all you can do is attack people?

Chill out, dude. I totally agree with you. You really need to stop making massive assumptions about what other people think. Of course modern society is inherently destructive, and of course none of us have a clean conscience. As I've said before, I don't believe a veggie diet makes me perfect or morally pure. It's just the little that I can do to help. For me, my personal moral line in the sand is that I find it abhorrent to kill a living creature to consume it when I can just as easily eat something else. It's you who chooses to keep coming here.... I'm not forcing this view on you or telling you how to live your life.

Stop being so infantile. If you don't want to here the moral arguments for vegetarianism, then what are you doing in a veggie forum? You'd hardly go to church and then complain that the priest should get down out of his pulpit!

Depends whos research you believe. Most research (including the more optimistic figures for vegetarianism) are biased towards whoever commissioned the poll. The figure of 10% was in the middle of the estimates that I've seen in the past.

 

I dont find hypotheticals that involve talking cows to be at all of any importance. Sorry....you may as well have said when pigs fly.

You obviously didnt read even the small snippet of the declaration i posted. Those rights are endowed by the creator...they are not given to men by men. Its not a law, its the way it IS. that is why they are inalienable. No law can take them away from you. The US could make a law saying it can kill whoever it wants, but it would be in violation of the rights of men.

Notice how i said "You need to eat the right mix of minerals and vitamins". Not only that, i changed my post about 2 seconds after i posted it. I meant that the only ONE thing you absoultey NEED is water, you can get your balanced diet from other souces, but you cant subsist without water.


How are you doing as much as you are able? You are doing as much as you can and still live a comfortable life. You choose to live in one of the most destructive societies on earth, how are you doing as much as you are able?

I dont come here to attack anyone for what they eat. You can eat cow dung for all i care. I just dont want others telling me how to eat. Why do you care if i come here? As you can see by my first post in this thread, it wasnt about vegetarianism, it was about warning someone not to join peta, which then flew way off topic to this.

Oh, well, if you have those studies, i'd like to look at them. 10% seems pretty high. But i hear that 25% of america is gay......or so many gays claim.

edit: Also, notice that the thread has talked about advocating to the world a pro vegetarian diet. Please, dont make it sound like i am coming in here and running in every thread and saying "Eat meat, not tofu!" Just because this is a veggie forum doesnt mean that it has no consequences for meat eaters. It's already bad enough that we have green peace people recruiting everywhere, and jehovah's witnesses trying to recruit everyone, i dont care to be chanted at about how i can live a more moral life by people on the street. You make it sound as if i, and other meat eaters come in here and disturb you while you do absolutely nothing. Look at numerous threads on this forum, and you can see that they takl about advocating to others about eating better and more morally. This isnt me going into a church and complaining about being preached at. Its i dont care for anyoen to tell me how to eat or live my life, and that doesnt. So please stop portraying yourselves as the ones who are just trying to be yourself and are getting bullied and preached to all the time. Quite the opposite seems to be true. I'm all for letting people eat what they want. How many veggies are? So many seem to feel the need that they need to tell everyone about their diet and how great it is. Instead of keeping it a personal issue, which it should be, people make a big deal about it. No one should be telling others how to live their life or what to eat. Keep to yourself and do what you want(as long as its legal of course)

 

I don't care if you come here at all. but you needen't attack us and why attack PETA ina forum full of veggieas and vegan, wow...thats like going into the marijuana forum and being like "pot and people who smoke it are retarded" seriously man, think. if you don't wanna get in arguments don't say things you KNOW will start arguments.

 

also if those rights are given us to by the creator whos to say she didn't give it to all of her creatures? how is it our place to say only we have those rights?

 

And there we part company. I don't believe in your god. And I certainly don't believe that any man knows his will.

You're not paying attention to what I said. Read it again: The amount to which I'm able is bound up with my personal limitations. I make no claim to perfection.

Then hanging out in a veggie forum is probably a bad idea, isn't it? If I didn't want to hear people telling me to believe in god, I wouldn't go to church.

I don't. You're entirely welcome here as far as I'm concerned. In return for that welcome though, I would expect you to behave with courtesy rather than being rude and offensive about the beliefs of veggies. This is a forum for veggies, and if you don't agree with what we blieve, then you should have the good manners to argue your points politely, and you certainly shouldn;t take offence when people express the reasons why they're vveggie in the first place. It's a veggie forum. If you don't want to hear those arguments, then don't be here!

I've told you before in other threads. I don't have a problem with meat eaters hanging in this forum and talking about their point of view. But I do find it rude when you complain about veggies explaining their perspective in a forum that's intended to be for us, not you.

 

i'm not coming here and calling vegans retards. I said peta and people who compare the holocaust to animal slaughter are whack jobs. Many, many people were offended by their comparison, meat eaters and veggies alike.

Please, show me ONCE, where i EVER attacked a vegan/veggie because they eat veggies and not meat?! just one time, please, and i promise, i wont come here again.

 

I have many veggie friends. Not a single one of them goes out preaching to anyone.

As is their right. If they want to advocate their point of view, then why shouldn't they? If someone comes up to you in the street, then by all means express yourself as strongly as you wish. But this is a veggie forum for veggies. If people put those points of view in here, you have no reason to complain.

Then don't come to a veggie forum! It's really not that complicated, dude.

I've never forced my opinion on anyone. I never go to forums populated by meat eaters and criticise them. You, on the other hand, are choosing to come to a veggie forum and argue with us. Why exactly do you spend so much time here if you allegedly don't like being preached at? 24 of your last 50 posts have been made in the veggie forum.

 

Just read some posts inthis thread and you can see people advocating to go out and preach against eating meat.

I am not criticizing vegans or veggies, i am criticizing ones who preach. As i said in the above post of mine, if you can show me a time where i ever attacked a vegan/veggie because they were a vegan/veggie, then i'll leave this forum and not come back, i promise.

As for why i come here? Its a nice way to pass the time while my laundry is being done...and because i choose to. You and others seem to have a big problem with me coming here.

So please answer my question...do i come here and attack vegans/veggies because of what they eat? You've seem to have followed enough of my threads to know the answer. And yes, because of the super size me and peta video threads, most my time on here has been dominated by this forum.

edit: Btw, you might want to talk to your compadres about ettiquette too. In this thread alone, i've been called anti jewish and a troll.

 

Some do, but they're in the minority. Most veggies will explain their diet if asked about it, but otherwise they have no reason to get drawn into debate. Most of us find it gets pretty boring after a while.

That's not the issue. The issue is your confrontational attitude. You may not criticise peoples' diet, but you mock them for their beliefs and frequently insult their reasoning and logic. For example, I've pointed out how you made a huge number of assumptions about me, my attitude and beliefs.... and you've not even had the courtesy to apologise.

I already covered this, dude. I have no problem with you coming here. The problem I have is when you complain about people preaching or whatever in a VEGGIE forum.

See above. Tone it down a bit, be less confrontational, be a tad less rude, and I imagine nobody here will have a problem with you. I've seen threads where you've stayed calm and reasonable, and the responses towards you have been a lot more positive. People generally give back what they get.