peacefully overthrow the government yay or nay

i say lets just work on the one we have. History is bound to repeat itself again and again, it is inevitable. Sure for a few years we might be happy while we are rebuilding but sooner or later it will decay back into the corrupt business it was before. The other argument like John Adams advocated was to keep having revolutions to keep it in the happy rebuilding stages, but if we did that we would be taken over by some other corrupt government and that would be even worse.

No, i do not think overthrowing the government is the right choice, but redical change within the framework that already exists would be nice

 

Because you place no value on human life.

 

No, because I'm fuckin pragmatic, the protesters in the street who were killing security officers obviously had no value for human life either.

You seem to have forgotten the main point that peaceful revolutions happen all the time, now either address that point without bringing up wars and revolutions that were violent or kindly move the fuck on.

 

You have yet to show me one single revolution that didn't include killing.

But obviously we are never going to come to any sort of agreement here, as somehow in your mind, killing people is a peaceful act, and it isn't in mine.

 

Then we'll let the forum decide,

Yo, would the revolutions of 1989 and fall of communism in eastern Europe be considered generally peaceful?

Where are the dead people Tom? I'm not going to call a revolution violent because a few people died at the hands of security officers over the course of many months, or because one protest in Lithuania had fire opened on it. The governments fell by the collective will of the people, not by armed struggle, nor did they use large scale military force to represses the protesters.

 

Oh see... I didn't understand until you changed your font to a huge one... it all makes so much more sense now...

Just how many dead people do you require before you consider it to be non peaceful then? 100? 1000? or just one of your family?

 

If the government of the United States was forced to resign tomorrow and every single person in my family died but they were the only ones it'd be a damn peaceful revolution.

If militia is on the street fighting then it's a bloody revolution.

A couple of people dying at the hands of the secret police in states where the secret police constantly kill people doesn't equal violent revolution. You really do have a some kind of problem with taking things literally. I guess America, Canada, Britain, Germany, we're not peaceful countries to live in since we do have murders every year.

Jesus take Romania out of the mix and the death toll for 1/2 a continent undergoing political revolution is lower then even Britain's yearly murder rate.

 

As I said earlier...

We will never agree here seems I obviously put a much higher value on a human life then you do.

 

I place a higher value at looking at the broader picture and putting things into context.

 

Ignoring violently or peacefully, should the U.S. government be brought down?
And more than anything else, I'm curious as to what form of government the majority would like to see emerge?

 

I agree with Tom and Syd.
Both are fucking important, and they run hand in hand.
With people being willing to die for the larger purpose, it could happen.

either way, both of you answer Individual's questions, please.
I consider you all intellectuals and I would like to see your viewpoints.

 

Wait you agree with Tom and me? But....but, how???

 

that's how the mind works, my friend.
you know that.

 

I would tend to take things literally as Tom would, even one death eliminates the possibility of peace.
I still believe if one is to overthrow a government,especially the U.S.,they had better be prepared to die. They are not going to hand over the keys to the white house because they are asked to.From 1968-1972 there was a peaceful engagement from the people and many were killed by government troops,Kent state for one.

Just because,in theory, one believes that this can be done peacefully will not make it so until the opposing government agrees with this position.

 

In the realm of American government we have local, State, and Federal government. Just where would most people think the greatest amount of power relevant to their individual life should reside?

 

Violent overthrough won't work (in terms of freeing the people) either, it will end up with fewer freedoms for everyone involved, as the person who steps up to lead such a revolution usually ends up using worse tactics then it's predecessors out of 'necessity' to keep the new regime alive....

Look at cuba and castro as an example. Long touted as a 'freedom fighter' Fidel instituted policies that have oppressed 'his' people to the extent that they are willing to risk everything to escape.

Beyond that, anyone who thinks that the government of the US won't pull back every single troop and bit of firepower to us on those that rise up is insane and blind.

In smaller non-developed countries, violent overthrow can work (in terms of replacing a government), if they have the support of outside groups. But they will not bring about freedom for their people, although it may result in increased freedoms.

These things are not as complicated as people try to make them out. You kill someone I care about, I will seek to kill you. I will not turn the other cheek, and neither will the majority of people who actually have human feelings. This of course does not include all my family members or what others may consider their family, only those who are actually cared about. Look at afghanastan and iraq.... Everytime there is a civilian killed, there is instantly created at least one (if not half a dozen) more 'freedom fighters/terrorists, depending on your point of view' who will gladly fight to the death to avenge their mother/father/brother/sister.

Although some may claim that they would ignore their family members (that they care about) being killed, this is either pure bullshit, or shows a lack of any type of ability to actually care about others.

In terms of what would work to overthrow a government such as the US... nothing, they will collapse under their own ineptitude and greed.

The issue will then be that there will be a power vacumn and who will step into it. Chances are, that person will be just as 'unacceptable' to masses as anyone else. Look at the way the US is now over the simple issue of voting in a person as president who simply has a different colored skin then them. There are people all over that are calling for the killing of the '******' for no other reason then their own fears. Will all these people lay down their arms if a violent revolution happens and another non-white steps up? Of course not, even if that person was the kindest, smartest and wisest person the world ever produce... because that person will still be 'different' then they are.

You want to look for hope... look for a global crisis of some sort that will wipe out a large portion of the earths population and shock people into actually looking at reality as opposed to their own little bubbles...

 

I don't see why in every hypothetical situation of the US government has the US military just killing everyone. First off, the military isn't this singularity with legs walking around. It's a vast cooperation basically that exists as it does because of coherent communications and commands. A country plunged into civil war doesn't lack the same infrastructure. And why would the entire army be on the governments side and not have defections? Any kind of scenario where the military gets deployed to battle civilians indicates at this point in time the United States is no longer a governable country and is completely engulfed in civil war.

As for revolutions, like I said, it's easy to focus on Cuba, Cambodia, Vietnam, whatever eventually gave way to authoritarian rule. Well what about Israel, Romania, Irish war of independence, Lebanon, Greece in its civil war, Nepal, and those are just recent countries. What about the United States, most of latin America, the various independence movements in colonial times. It's too easy to focus on the movements that failed to produce results.

And no Tom, despite what you want to think, most people do not go out on blood vendettas when someone in their family gets killed. Most people realize killing someone isn't going to bring them back and don't want blood on their hands too. This is why there's not people laying dead all over the streets on a normal day. This is why most people in Afghanistan actually want us there, this is why rebel groups and civil wars don't go on indefinitely, most people if they need to kill do it for a higher reason then petty revenge.

 

So, you edited this to make it specifically addressed to me? Too bad I already gave up on trying to have any type of rational conversation with you about this.

 

Now that its been brought down, what are you going to do with it?

 

exist.