only so many?

Babylon. Basically proto-Indo European culture and it's many offspring.

True, many things can fill that particular role. Different things work for different people.

Ok, but there -is- that void. And one thing that nearly all off-shoots of PIE(and basically everyone else actually) have used to fill it has been psychoactive chemicals of one variety or another. Be it psychedelics, or alcohol, or others. The other common tool has been religion. In some cases the 2 have combined. And I am not relegating puritanistic cultures to fringe-status. They have simply, historically tended to be fringe societies. Rarely full cultures of their own for more then a couple generations, they have primarily existed as subcultures. A generation or 2 in, and half the new generation renounce their religion and move away from the puritan behavior. Or at least do so during the time period when usage is most extreme, cross-culturally, during young adulthood.

Um...So quantum physics is spirituality? I think that's a broad enough definition as to be specifically inaccurate. I cannot off the top of my head come up with a better one though, so...

Well,then it's simply something you seem to have in common with many atheists.

Here perhaps we will need to agree to disagree.

Then again, maybe not?

What principle is this that makes such attribution a mistake? I thought you were of the impression that personal belief should remain personal? So if I believe there is a spiritual, mystical, or religious aspect to psychedelics, then my belief is a mistake? Interesting.

Why is it a problem to theorize that something that has helped many, could help society in general? I don't suggest forcing the experience on anyone by any means, but having it available as an option, an accepted and respected one, seems like it would indeed be a great boon to society in general. Perhaps not -needed- per se, but certainly useful.

Perhaps needs is to strong a word. Does society -need- a police force? We can argue the form the police force takes, but I think most people might agree that removing all police-like activity from the world would be a mistake. Police aren't -needed-, societies can and do exist without them. But they fill a need.

Similar the role that has long been played by various faces. In the guise of shaman, mystic, priest, and now therapist. Same role, different methodology. For different cases, and different people, different methods work better. Perhaps not needed, they still fill a need.

I do not see why people standing up and saying that they have found a method of dealing with an age-old human issue, that works for them and may work for others, and asking that it be an acceptable means of dealing with the issue for those who wish it, should be such a drastic mistake. I think there are few who think of it as the only answer. Though there are many who may feel that it is the best answer. What worked for one, all too often, is seen as the one true solution.

One difficulty with the 'strong dividing line between personal belief and society' is that the personal beliefs of the members of society is what decides the shape of society. There isn't a dividing line, the personal is the political. There is no society, over there, that is separate and divorced from the personal beliefs, desires, actions and experiences of individuals. It's like saying there needs to be a dividing line between the forest and the individual trees.

The drugs are illegal for a number of reasons, but it's -not- because people who use them think they're magical, or view them as the master key of reality. It's because they are disruptive to the structure of society, and were particularly so when they were new. It's because they are frightening, and unpredictable, in part because they are still so new. It's because they seem dangerous. It's because they cause people to act out in unpredictable fashions, and the current social order relies on a certain amount of predictability. Stability, security, predictability are all elements of society we value, and a sudden influx of large amounts of psychedelics were a real threat to that.

Give it time, society is coming around. An est 23 million Americans have used lsd. Though I haven't got any idea where that number comes from, and it could be wildly off-base, there are still a lot who have. And it seems that it is starting to make something of a come back. It's starting to reappear a tiny bit in the news, and this time without anywhere near the level of panicked hysteria, with a far more neutral presence. Maybe compared to meth, lsd is starting to look pretty good.

Scientific research, on human subjects, has started back up again, with a variety of aims. Including some few purely 'quality of life' studies, though these aimed at those dealing with terminal illness it opens the door for their use as something other then a pill for headaches or a daily med to make the world less horrible. Use as it seems to be preferred by many, as an occasional experience to clean out the cobwebs, to rebalance the psyche.

The Santo Daime church has finally won it's court case, making Ayahuasca use for religious purposes fully legal, for at least one group, in the US. This is a landmark decision, considering the relative youth of the religion itself. The Peyote churches gained legality some time ago, but their religion got through due to 'grandfathering', and to treaties with the indigenous Americans, and was restricted to use only on reservations. Which are subject to a slightly different law system then the rest of the country. Santo Daime has been cleared without such history, and without such restrictions.

These are all positive signs. In my opinion, the manner that Leary hurt the movement was -not- the spiritual, mystical spin he gave it. But rather that he tried to blow it up too big, too fast, he and Kesey both. I feel that the spiritual aspect given to it by Leary, by Ram Dass, by McKenna, By Shulgin, and many others was by and large a positive one. And one I am pleased is likely to stick around for quite some time to come.

 

wiki pedia lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide
iv done tonns of research in my time, and it sums it up pretty well.

i am racist, but every human is. its instinctive. u dont see cockatoo's flying around with pigeons? do u? so why would an asian hang with a caucasian. when asians come to our country, they flock to their own groups. thats called natural instinct, were just animals. its only the changing "views on society" that have tried to change racism. racism wouldnt be such a big problem if it wasnt instinctive. anyway, thats another story.
i finshed hi school with high achiements, went straight to uni, for 1.5 years, and then tafe for 1.5 years, i have diploma in justice. cause i might be a cop. but dnt need to i just got an awesum apprentiship as a linesman, so ill be on 80 to 100k. so fuck u biatch.

and that girl came home with me, for sex. that shit wouldnt hold up in court. she was just silly, she learnt a lesson. good for her.


anyway... back to the main topic, before ur bullshit judgements and crap u made.

Albert hoffman choose not to take lsd later in life. I watched a video of him I remember. I watched him say it himself.

that hunter s thompson quote is awesum. i quoted that same quote last time i was talking about this along time ago. the point im getting at, is, in the end, the drug has no real benefit. a dog chassing a dream that doesnt exist. and the more trips u do, the more psychological 'damage' u may become.
if u think im being stoopid, u should seriously think again. lol

i have a very level headed view about this, not naive to the consequences, but still accepting of some benefits in perspective. but ur just completly lost man.

i base my opinion, on personal experience, and the reactions and experiences of lsd on about 10 - 15 friends.


i think P diddy is the biggest dick on this site. lost in his own delusion.lol u had it commin man

 

Well Peter I just read through the Wikipedia page that you site as your source for this information;

Problem is that what you quoted is nowhere in the Wikipedia entry about LSD.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt considering that Wikipedia is created by users and entries are constantly being updated, perhaps you had the above quotes from an old version somehow. Although I couldn't find them in the history of changes, but I also didn't go through the hundreds of revisions, so it could be hiding in the history somewhere.

Concerning it's use in psychotherapy, this is what it says;

Psychotherapy
In the 1950s and 1960s LSD was used in psychiatry to enhance psychotherapy. Some psychiatrists believed LSD was especially useful at helping patients to "unblock" repressed subconscious material through other psychotherapeutic methods, and also for treating alcoholism. One study concluded, "The root of the therapeutic value of the LSD experience is its potential for producing self-acceptance and self-surrender," presumably by forcing the user to face issues and problems in that individual's psyche.

In December 1968, a survey was made of all 74 UK doctors who had used LSD in humans, 73 replied, 1 had moved overseas and was unavailable. Of the 73 replies, the majority of UK doctors with clinical experience with LSD felt that LSD was effective and had acceptable safety: 41 (56%) continued with clinical use of LSD, 11 (15%) had stopped because of retirement or other extraneous reasons, 9 (12%) had stopped because they found LSD ineffective, and 5 (7%) had stopped because they felt LSD was too dangerous.

What I also find interesting is what it did have to say concerning the dangers and most notably the psychological dangers of LSD;

Dangers

LSD may temporarily impair the ability to make sensible judgments and understand common dangers, thus making the user more susceptible to accidents and personal injury and cause signs of organic brain damage-impaired memory and attention span, mental confusion or difficulty with abstract thinking However LSD is physiologically well tolerated and there is no evidence for long-lasting effects on brain and other parts of the human organism.

Adverse Drug Interactions
There is some indication that LSD may trigger a dissociative fugue state in individuals who are taking certain classes of antidepressants such as lithium salts and tricyclics. In such a state, the user has an impulse to wander, and may not be aware of his or her actions, which can lead to physical injury. Anonymous anecdotal reports have attributed seizures and one death to the combination of LSD with lithium. SSRIs noticeably reduce LSD's subjective effects. MAOIs are also reported to reduce the effects of LSD.

Panic/Anxiety
LSD may bring out panic attacks or feelings of extreme anxiety, colloquially referred to as a "bad trip".

Psychosis
There are some cases of LSD inducing a psychosis in people who appeared to be healthy prior to taking LSD. In most cases, the psychosis-like reaction is of short duration, but in other cases it may be chronic. It is difficult to determine whether LSD itself induces these reactions or if it triggers latent conditions that would have manifested themselves otherwise. The similarities of time course and outcomes between putatively LSD-precipitated and other psychoses suggest that the two types of syndromes are not different and that LSD may have been a nonspecific trigger.

Estimates of the prevalence of LSD-induced prolonged psychosis lasting over 48 hours have been made by surveying researchers and therapists who had administered LSD:

Cohen (1960) estimated 0.8 per 1,000 volunteers (the single case among approximately 1250 study volunteers was the identical twin of a schizophrenic and he recovered within 5 days) and 1.8 per 1,000 psychiatric patients (7 cases among approximately 3850 patients, of which 2 cases were "preschizophrenic" or had previous hallucinatory experience, 1 case had unknown outcome, 1 case had incomplete recovery, and 5 cases recovered within up to 6 months).
Malleson (1971) reported no cases of psychosis among experimental subjects (170 volunteers who received a total of 450 LSD sessions) and estimated 9 per 1,000 among psychiatric patients (37 cases among 4300 patients, of which 8 details are unknown, 10 appeared chronic, and 19 recovered completely within up to 3 months).


Now this I found very interesting;

However, in neither survey study was it possible to compare the rate of lasting psychosis in these volunteers and patients receiving LSD with the rate of psychosis found in other groups of research volunteers or in other methods of psychiatric treatment (for example, those receiving placebo).
Cohen (1960) noted:

"The hallucinogenic experience is so striking that many subsequent disturbances may be attributed to it without further justification. The highly suggestible or hysterical individual would tend to focus on his LSD experience to explain subsequent illness. Patients have complained to Abramson that their LSD exposure produced migraine headaches and attacks of influenza up to a year later. One Chinese girl became paraplegic and ascribed that catastrophe to LSD. It so happened that these people were all in the control group and had received nothing but tap water."


HMM, sound like anybody we know, attributing all their problems to LSD.

 

PB, you're awesome, ya know that?

 

:iagree:

 

Ahh, your gonna make me blush :blush5:

Just relaying the facts as found online in the available research, nothing more, nothing less. Anyone can do the same.

 

That was my impression, but you are still awesome.

 

You say you have a college education and earned a degree, but your spelling, grammar, and general attitude towards other people says different.

She learned a lesson? What, is the following part of your course in how to avoid being sexually assualted?
I quote you from the thread in question entitled post traumatic stress;

Peter Popper:
"im gonna shoot a muslim when i see one. they think the americans are crazy waisting clips of ammo on everything, welll they aint see nothing yet lol"

"i hardly class pharms as drugs well i mean narcotics when i say drugs.
last week i took 13 valium and went clubbing and drank a shit load took 6 codeine pills took this girl to my mattes house, who drove my car all over the road, then we get home and he starts fingering her on the kicthen floor cause we fell over so i start figuring her butt lol she goes outside crying so we call her a taxi lol oh yeah cause we were doing hi 5's over her head. anyway i mussed have taken alot cause one she left i was throwing up in the backyard i couldnt see straight even in the morning."

and this gem as well;

"she was my hookup for the night. i was treating her well.
it was my friend that ripped off her pants on the kitchen floor and started fingering her... so naturally i fingered her butt.

ur too old man. ur fuckin almost 50.
u dont know what the younger generation is all about.

if she was slutty enough to come back alone with 3 guys to there house than silly girl. that shit was bound to happen.
she was my fuck for the night. but we humuliated her.
she never said no"

You really are a classy, sophisticated gentleman Peter.

 

this post was very informative. and as someone who hasnt done lsd yet. I seriously want to. pb_smith thanks for sharing all that information. It was very good to read. and refreshing

 

lol.

wow that brings back memories.
ohh so it was 13 i took. couldnt remember really.

well that was along time ago. yeah me n mate went out every weekend to pick up girls. to hook up. most of the time we did. we played it pretty well.
that night was just a crazy night. i was fucked, my friend was fucked.

if a girl comes home with 3 boys by herself, what does she thinks gonna happen? she was silly. but that was probably the worst case scenario out of all the girls we hooked up with. and anyway i was so fucked i had no idea what was goin on.

lol the only other time me n my mate have ever humilated a girl, was when we double teamed her. we both fucked her at once, n my friend was giving her so much shit. n we were doin hi 5's. and calling her a slut. as she was. and eventualy she kicked us out, and we rann down the steeet screaming and laughing. lol were just a crazy pair of people. but she learned a lesson too, girls shouldnt be such sluts.

sounds harsh but thats just reality. i would never date a slut.

i dont have a degree, i have a tafe diploma (still tertiary education). i failed uni so didnt get the degree.
if i have to write a written assignment for tertiary eduction, do u honestly think it would be like how i write on a drug forum? lol

at the end of the day we are on a drug forum, n most people reading this have prob done most of the drugs under the sun. so dont pretend ur some amazing person in society ok. u take drugs.
iv never been arrested, jailed, nothing. no criminal offences... so seriously man lay off.
its all in the name of fun when ur young, maybe u forget, its along time for u.
but at my age, taking drugs n stuff, sure theres gonna be some crazy times. jesus.


"turn on, tune in, drop out" a quote from timothy leary clinical psychologist, harvard professor. says it himself. sounds just great for society?

 

Like I said, You really are a classy, sophisticated gentleman Peter.

Sorry, but when I was your age I never had to get any girls intoxicated to the point of passing out or force them to have sex with me. Actually the opposite, I usually had women trying to get in my pants, still do.

For you to even remotely think that the kind of behavior you boast about and attitude you have towards women is "all in the name of fun" and normal youthful antics just shows how much you are removed from normal societal concepts of decent, respectful behavior and what a sociopath you really are.

I don't for one second think I am some amazing person in society, but I do know I am a better human being than you.

 

So how bout them aliens?

 

DMT space aliens?

 

I don't know, lets ask Peter.

Peter, How is your family doing?

 

Dude Peter Popper Eifel towers them hoes

 

my family is great. no one has any history of any mental illness. our house is valued at 1.5 mill. my dad is a medical scientist. my oldest sister has her masters in guidance councilling , then my oldest bro, has a degree in IT, and is currently doing his masters degree, my second oldest sister, has 4 degrees, cant remember what in, but teaching, and music, and is also doing her masters, then theres my lil sister whos in year 10, and she gets straight A's.
then theres me the drop kick of the family, cause i failed uni. but hey i got a sick job with the biggest electrical company in the state, ill be on 80 to 100 k. so im sweet now.
ohhh and my mum is an occupational therapist. she used to work with schizophrenics, that thought she was jesus. she doesnt work now tho, she is a stay home mum. for us 5 children.

so i come from a pretty good upbringing, and i have pretty good morals. i know how to treat people right, i neva cross anyone. woman who are slutty sicken me, it was how i was raised.
iv hit the drugs pretty hard somtimes throughout my life, but iv always tried to do well, in school, or at uni, or tafe.


i have strong set beleifs. if anything, acid has made me stronger and more set in my beleifs that what i was. i feel like iv been there, seen all this crazy shit. and my version of reality is right.
but doesnt everyone think that? ofcourse they do.
no matter how much u tell a religious freak there is no god, it wont change their mind. simple.

a girl fucks 10 guys shes a slut, a guy fuckes 10 girls hes a legend... thats society.
girls shouldnt fuck untill there married, or atlest in a relationship for a few weeks.
if she gives it up on first date, shes a slut. plain n simple.

n im a really nice guy to girls.

at the end of the day, this is a forum, of THOUGHTS!!!!
and you cannot possibly gather how i actually act in society. im an easy going, fun , person, that neva has issues with anyone. unless ur being used, cause ur a slut.lol

 

farkkkin hell jesus! will u listen to urself.
critizing people, and calling urself better than somone else, deffinatly doesnt make u better. u sound like a psychopath. im honest and open about things.

u havent once said anything about ur personal life. ur 50. im sure youve done some rotten stuff in ur years. so dont pretend alright.
iv never ever once hit a girl or anything of the sorts.

i merely came to this forum, to gain some perspective and have a debate about acid. but some people take it so damn personal.
the hatred u have is because ur trying to protect ur drug of choice, u dont want to beleive the things i say, but deep down u know im right. and it hurts, so u have hate.

hunter s thompson is a legend. acid allowed him to open his mind and write litterature from a new perspective. what made him famous also ruined him. the more drugs he did, the more fucked he got. his litterature became not so good. did u see the way that dude acted on live tv? i forget the show? but hes just fucked, its what the acid n shit does. then he killed himself in the end.

timothy leary, got the sack from harvard, go carried away in the fantasy trip... blah blah blah u know the rest, did some more experiments which slowly lost their value. then turned into lsd parties ** i remember reading

 

Alright people are biased against themselves, so I'll get in on the vote count, PB is a better person than peter popper if for anything this alone:

If you think Hunter acting weird is because of acid, you just don't "get" Hunter.

 

I would point out that belief is a symbol chosen to represent an unknown variable. To say your beliefs are set, is like saying you don't want to know anything.

 

That's an interesting definition of belief, you come up with that yourself?