Now a famous Professor Atheist believes in God existence

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by catstevens, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe

    Ok, this isn't a new news but perhaps new for some member,

    NEW YORK Dec 9, 2004 — A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.

    At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

    Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.

    "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose." [Read my comment on this#2]

    Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.

    Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

    There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

    Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?" [Read my comment on this#3]

    The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.

    The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.

    The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.
    This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Press.

    Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

    Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.

    Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."

    Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.
    [Please visit this link (The Darwinism fails)]


    A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.

    Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.

    Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.

    Yours Sincerely,
    Cat Stevens
     
  2. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe




    I hope one day he will change his mind in this too Amen. Does he alive?
    Quraan: 23: 115: Did you think that I had created you in play (without any purpose), and that you would not be brought back to me?
    32:5: He manages and regulates (every) affair from the heavens to the earth
    6: 91: They did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: '' Nothing did Allah send down to any human being (by revelation)



    That is stupid to judge God according to his believers? If Saddam is bad it doesn't mean that the God that he believes in like him? What is the wrong with you professor Flew? Are you serious or kidding? Think a lot before talking.
    Quraan: 22: 74: They have not estimated Allah his Rightful estimate.

    4: 50: Look, how they invent a lie against Allah and enough is that as a manifest sin.

    22:8: And among men is he who disputes about Allah, without knowledge or guidance, or a Book giving light (from Allah).




    I hope one day he will change his mind in this too Amen. Does he alive?
    My deepest best wishes goes to you Flew :)
    Quraan: 23: 115: Did you think that I had created you in play (without any purpose), and that you would not be brought back to me?

    22:5: O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily, I have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. the offspring of Adam), then from a clot ( a piece of thick coagulated blood) then from a little lump of flesh- some formed and some unformed (as in the case of miscarriage)- that we may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you our power and ability to do what I will)… And you see the earth barren, but when I send down water (rain) on it, it is stirred (to life), and it swells and puts forth every lovely kind (of growth). 6: That is because Allah: he is the truth, and it is He who gives life to the dead, and it is He who is Able to do all things. 7: And surely, the Hour is coming, there is no doubt about it; and certainly, Allah will resurrect those who are in the graves.

    46: 33: Do they not see that Allah, who created the heavens and the earth, and was not wearied by their creation, is Able to give life to the dead? Yes, He surely is Able to do all things.

    75: 36: Does man think that he will be left neglected (without being punished or rewarded for the obligatory duties enjoined by his lord Allah on him)? 37: was he not a Nutfah (mixed male and female sexual discharge) of semen emitted (poured forth)? 38: then he became an 'Alaqah ( a clot); then (Allah) shaped and fashioned (him) in due proportion. 39: And made of him two sexes, male and female. 40: Is not He (Allah who does that) Able to give life to the dead?

    36: 78: And he puts forth for us a parable, and forgets his own creation. He says: '' who will give life to those bones after they are rotten and have become dust?'' 79: Say: (O Muhammad) '' he will give life to them who created them for the first time! And he is All-Knower of every creation!''…… 88: Verily, his command, when he intends a thing, is only that he says to it, ''Be!"- And it is!

    Read these verses very carefully:

    19:66: And man (the disbeliever) says: When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive? 67: Does not man remember that we created him before, while he was nothing?

    30:27: And He it is who originates the creation, He will repeat it (after it has been perished); and this is easier for Him.

    Clarifications:

    Adam the father of the humanity wasn't existed before Allah created him and he created him from Dust , the dust wasn't existed before Allah created it, so Allah can create anything from nothing. Because from nothing he can create anything. Can we make a woodenchair without wood? No.
    66: And man (the disbeliever) says: When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive? 67: Does not man remember that we created him before, while he was nothing?
    Allah is talking to those who don't believe that they will be raised up alive? So Allah saying if he (Allah) had canned create them from nothing so is it more difficult to raise him up alive? What is more difficult to you to create a computer (the first computer) or to put it together (you already had the computer's parts)?

    So, 30:27: And He it is who originates the creation, He will repeat it (after it has been perished); and this is easier for Him.





    Yeah, when you are sure that you're following the right path then don't ever never care if the other people will hate or leave you. Be with the truth, whatever happens, that's it.

    Visit these links please (God existence)

    The Darwinism fails:

    Yours Sincerely,
    Cat Stevens
     
  3. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe




    A Scientific Miracle in the Holy Quraan



    '' We will show them our signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quraan) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?''

    Chapter: 41, verse: 53.


    God supported His last Prophet Muhammad pbuh with many miracles and evidences which proved that he is a true Prophet sent by God. Also, God supported His last revealed book, the Holy Quraan, with many miracles that prove that this Quraan is the literal word of God, revealed by Him, and that it was not authored by any human being.


    The Quraan, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quraan must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and that the Quraan was not authored by Muhammad pbuh or by any other human being. This also proves that Muhammad pbuh is truly a prophet sent by God. It is beyond reason that anyone fourteen hundred years ago would have known these facts discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophisticated scientific methods. One example follow.
     
  4. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe

    1) The Quraan on Human Embryonic Development:
    In the Holy Quraan, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:
    We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... (Quraan, 23:12-14)
    Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
    In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two1 as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.2
    [​IMG]
    Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)
    Footnotes:
    (1) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 8.
    (2) Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 36.
    The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.
    [​IMG]
    Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)
    [​IMG]
    Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)

     
  5. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe

    The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage3 (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week.4 Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.
    [​IMG]


    Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

    So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

    Footnotes:

    (3) Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, pp. 37-38.

    (4) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 65.
    The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.”5 (see
    figures 5 and 6
    [​IMG]
    Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan
    [​IMG]
    Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
    A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
    B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed.
    (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

    Footnotes:

    (5) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 8.
     
  6. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe

    How could Muhammad have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad ). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.6

    Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore7is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.
    In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quraan about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”8 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here ).

    Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”
    9

    During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century.

    The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”
    11 (View the RealPlayer video of this comment ).

    Footnotes:

    6) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 9.

    (7) Note: The occupations of all the scientists mentioned in this web site were last updated in 1997.

    (8) The reference for this saying is This is the Truth (videotape). For a copy of this videotape, please visit
    this page.

    (9) This is the Truth (videotape).

    (10) This is the Truth (videotape). For a copy, see footnote no. 9.


    YoursSincerely,
    CatStevens[​IMG]
     
  7. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe

    Is it possible that Muhammad might have claimed prophethood ?


    Allah stated:


    '' Neither did you (O Muhammad) read any book before it (this Quraan), nor did you write any book (whatsoever) with your right hand. In that case, indeed the followers of falsehood might have doubted''

    Chapter: 29, verse: 48
    This is a proof that the Quraan is from the God (WORD of the LORD) Because the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate in both (reading, writing), then he bring the Quraan,'' In that case, indeed the followers of falsehood might have doubted'' that if Muhammad (PBUH) was reading or writing then the disbelievers will be in doubt and they will say perhaps

    Muhammad learned that or read it in some where! But they didn't say that because they know that Muhammad was orphan (father &mother) , Poor and illiterate in both (reading, writing). He was living between them. Consequently, how did Muhammad (PBUH) was knowing what was written in the Gospel & Torah?? How did he know the stories about the previous messengers of God which has written in the Gospel & Torah??!! Surely, Allah has told him.

    Allah stated:
    '' And messengers we have mentioned to you before, and messengers we have not mentioned to you,… ''

    Chapter: 4, verse: 164.
    '' We relate to you (Muhammad) the best of stories through our revelations to you, of this Quraan. And before this (i.e. before the coming of the Divine Revelation to you), you were among those who knew nothing about it ''

    Chapter: 12, verse: 3
    YoursSincerely,

    CatStevens
     
  8. Libertine

    Libertine Guru of Hedonopia

    Excuse me, but...

    Who are you talking to?...exactly...?
     
  9. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

    81 years old? It's the effect of memory loss :)
     
  10. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe

    Surely God is existed Mr Flew J
    Ops! I think it was better to post this thread in the science department perhaps? I am in my way.
     
  11. Libertine

    Libertine Guru of Hedonopia

    Ahhh...gotcha. ;)
     
  12. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe




    Well, I found this Article by chance, and was happy, I want to let the believers (in God existence) to know about him (he is one of our community now :) ), I wrote my comments on the article, and my thread is for everybody.




    I don't think so, he became saner :) congratulations Mr Flew , now he deserves Professor surname.

    Yours Sincerely,
    Cat Stevens
     
  13. ryupower

    ryupower NO capcom included

    So, is he now a Muslim?
     
  14. IronGoth

    IronGoth Newbie

    Cat Stevens?

    Yeah. Oh, now he's "Yusuf Islam"

    He found Islam after almost drowning, renounced music, grew his beard, opened some mosques - said publicly Rushdie deserves to die and financed Al-Qaeda, for which he is NOT allowed in the US and was in fact routed back to Britain for same. Naturally he's completely confused as to why people would have a problem with him.
     
  15. Libertine

    Libertine Guru of Hedonopia

    IronGoth, I believe we've found TWO areas we can agree on. ;)
     
  16. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe





    I don't think so, I think he is deistè (Quote: Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives) I hope he will become Muslim :) , myself I am looking for a way to contact him E-mail, fax, Telephone,… basically I don't know if he still alive J



    hahaha, the utter silly joke ever, Is US seriously fearing him "YUSUF" if so then US is the most cowardly and infected in phobia. If Yusuf Islam is a suspected terrorist, so what are the rest of the people then???!! So then Let the world rest in peace.


    Not people rather the people who infected in phobia. Have problem with him just because he embraced Islam as some of his previous fans stated and others. Who cares about them, he doesn't need them, he is my dear Yusuf :)

    Just taking off the topic:sunglasse

    Yours Sincerely,
    Cat Stevens
     
  17. nitemarehippygirl

    nitemarehippygirl Senior Member

    apparently the specific quote was, "The Qu'ran makes it clear if someone defames the Prophet, then he must die."

    anyway, back to the thread.
    catstevens, with all due respect, i doubt very much that your writing a letter to professor flew urging him to turn muslim will result in anything at all. a man who has spent 80 years of his life in logical, objective thinking is extremely unlikely to be suddenly converted to an organized, doctrinal religion such as islam. a deist refuses to accept 'revealed' religions, but simply comes to the conclusion that, through observing nature, there is some sort of universal god. it is a natural religion, and the 'god' believed in doesn't have any sort of special personal relationship with humans. it is not prayed to or anything. god is very simply the thing that makes nature work. it is a totally different concept than that of the jewish/christian/muslim god.


    peace,
    :)
     
  18. catstevens

    catstevens Muslim Top To Toe





    Would mind quoting that verse from Quraan. As the most of the time just insisting (some members) to take off the topic.


    my dear sister, I wrote my comments on his article as a Moslem that's it.


    wonders happens :)

    Peace J
    Yours Sincerely,
    Cat Stevens
     
  19. StonerBill

    StonerBill Learn

    methinks it is a case of an old man doing what he can to die in peace and hopefully go to a better place afterwards.

    look at the world through the eyes of an 80 yo whos gonna die soon and it is not the same world you live in now
     
  20. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    Yeah, so some farty old coot who didn't ever believe in God before now does. Big deal.
     

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