Noah's Ark 2004

Post #40 on page 4, I asked for more details on this 'pillar lava'. Please expand on your information. Do you perhaps have a link?

 

I am not familiar with Pillar Lava being found atop Mt.Ararat, although I heard of some kooky rumour along that lines.


Oddly enough, there are ancient Anchor Stones found in that Mountain Range and this is something taken very seriously by researchers.

The Pillar Lava is a new one to me?

 

Reading scriptures...puzzled , what more should i know ..??

http://arksearch.com/nastory.htm he put two by two .. i thought
Well i did learn

.. please direct me to the story you think i should read. ??? I would be intrested .

what has science got to do with this anyway... ??? again pleas explain..

I did not want to be rude or dismiss it (okay so i did) please enlighten me.

 

I stand corrected - only 75% of your post was tosh,


Yes, it is possible that 2 (or 7) of each kind were placed on the Ark.
Regardless of what you may or may not believe really did happen - it is physically possible.

This has been mentioned before but what happens is that the original 'Kind' is carried on to the future environment. i.e. The Grey Wolf. - the natural selection see's that the many subspecies devolve from that original Ark Refugee animal.

There ya go.

 

You watch to much history channel were they try to pass everything in the Bible as a myth or another myth.

 

Hehe... Yep I know exactly what you mean. 'Mysteries of the Bible' from A&E was another example of sheer propaganda from the 'Jesus Seminar' ultra liberal/heretical types.

Its always packaged in this smarmy attitude of "hey.. we are being unbiased is all".
They count on the fact that most people dont realise they are watching a highly tuned and specifically pointed propaganda wanting to fake them out.

Example being this 'Sumerian Myth' allegedly behind the Ark Story.

What they do not tell the viewers is this - IF the flood happened, then we absolutely should expect many ancient peoples to have Flood Stories too.

(Now watch this logically) Just because we in 2004 find a 'Flood Account' which is written before Moses account - does not therefore mean one comes from the other.

It just so happens we found that cultures account and nothing more.
Presumably The Jews had their own account too, even though it was a few years before Moses penned the Official Account.

The point is - these Gnostic Propaganda bible documentries on History Channel or A&E count on the fact that people like Chief CowPie wont 'think through' that bit.

 

exactly what I was thinking brock

 

as regards the ark and the animals going two by two.


would it have been one of each species and relation?


i mean a lot of things evolve and such so would that mean that the amount of animals we hold in our heads is actuall 10 times more then what were carried on the ark itself if it did exist?

im not much in the way of evolution and stuff but i assume a lot of animals now wern't in existance back then or hadnt evolved[or is it devolved] as such depending on how long ago the flood hapened.


i mean you have felines and you have all the other species. could it be possible they all didn't evolve[devolve?] until after the coming of the flood?

or is that just madness?

 

Even if you took away some thousands of years worth of natural selection, then theres still incredible amounts of animals. HEAPS. most evoluion and complex selection is done over many thuosands of years.

 

Its a little tricky to assume exactly what the Primary Kind of animals were since many of those may have gone extinct since then.


Just as an example.. although people use the example of the 'Grey Wolf' to explain how all other dogs came about - there are many that suspect there was even a 'Higher' Prime animal.
New research is always pouring in but recently it was thought that it may have descended from a sorta 'Hyena' type creature.
Even more recently, Bears are being included in the same 'lineage' as Dogs.
These changes coming about due to recent discovery and mapping of DNA.

Now then, as for three thousand years being 'long enough'? [or too soon]?

Not much of a problem there. It would not take too long for a 'Grey Wolf' pack to see the most colourful ones eliminated in the new Ice Age and the ones with more 'White Genes' to establish themselves.

I suppose we will never know exactly how much genetic variation the original 'Prime' Kinds had - but it certainly was enough that a Grey Wolf has brought us Toy Poodles and Great Danes in just a few centuries.
Four Milleniums is a lot of time when dramatic enviromental changes and 'split offs' are happening.
Just look at the Camel and the Llamma - they have changed quite a bit from their original 'parents'.

Anyway.. there is a new science forming now that will look into (back into) this further.
We should expect a lot of interesting research into the original kinds that began our animal kingdom.

 

This is were 'modern' thinking comes into it..and a cop out. how many species has been calculated that were onboard saying 'your' rationale is right..

I read the story a few times and i still see that it says that ALL the animals on the earth were onboard ... it is technicaly and physicaly impossible.

The two thoughts i spoke of in my first post were told too me to precisly dismiss modern thought... the story is either a analogy or possible because gathering the amount possible in a few days would be enough (i guess) to fill such a 'small' ark. At the time of the writing of this story i am sure the amount of animals conceivable in 'mans' eyes would have filled the ark , but we now are aware that we still have not the full figure of the diverse creatures on this earth..

Then to say the animals de/evolved Bringing in evolution to account for the multitude of animals around ... is clutching at straws.

I mentioned science has nothing to do with it it ...because supposedly god made all animals ... no evolution involved so it just makes a nonsense of it.

You can say the interpretation can be diffrent..but fundementaly the story says all the animals in varying amounts were squeezed onto a boat and sailed for seven days..

Again no offence...tosh.

I see from reading back that my points have been raised and and answered ...i just think not all the stories in the bible or from whatever source you wish that accounts for this..it should not be taken literaly..

saying google is one of the best search engines around...the first link 'noahs ark' is so unconvincing and full or religouse spin and downright crap its laughable...a new PR team need to be at work with this whole story.

 

As long as we're getting into DNA here, anyone read The Seven Daughters of Eve?
Basicaly, people of European descent can geneticaly be traced back to seven original women... i know its off topic, but i think it's interesting. :H

 

Matthew,
Typical of many critics - you start with 'a little bit of knowledge' and proceed to make a mess of everything as you assume to know it all.

First - Noah takes 2 or 7 of each 'Kind'.
A 'Kind' is established throughout Moses writing and indicates a whole class of animal.
For example there would be Seven Dogs. Not every possible version of dogs.
Another example - the main 'Deer' Kind. Not every version, antelope, caribou, gazelle etc etc.
Yes, its not the same exact way of language we use today but that is how the word 'Kind' was used then.

Now then..

The 'evolution' we are talking about is 'Natural Selection'.
So we are not asking for this 'Prime Deer' to spend millions of years ADDING genetic characteristics.
[Yes, that would be 'Tosh' if that was what I was talking about]

We are looking at exactly the same kind of Natural Selection we see today.
Genetic characteristics are being 'split off' from the 'Prime Kind' of creature.

So, as we see a Toy Poodle and a Great Dane 'Selected' out of the Grey Wolf in just 200 years - So we would see tremendous offshoots from this original 'Kind' put on the Ark.

.....................

Souless... I had heard of this 'Noahs Seven Daughters' but will check it out .. very interesting!
They can now narrow down all human DNA to one woman.. hehe.. researchers have dubbed her 'Eve'.
(I guess they didnt know Noahs Wifes name?)

 

OK i give you (your) fact that their is not every kind..what was the reason between 2 or 7 unclean and clean

why only creatures that crept the earth (i am working from the text in my other post) why not the sea.. if a choice was being made between clean and unclean then why not the creatures of the sea. and rivers etc ??

those of shoots work (maybe) with grey wolf ..but can't you see that its a bit of a stretch to think that noah managed to gather a whole class of animal from the four corners of the globe and from many diffrent continents...just saying he got a few of these and a few of them and hence forth all of creature kind was repopulated... so bears became polar bears , pandas and so on (and the vast amout of others).

I don't know precisly what was going on 4300 years ago for god to be so mad...but i am quite sure that we have done worse since...i can't see the significance of 4300 years ago..only that that may be how far certain religous history can go..

The whole thing rests on that a 600 year old man managed to convince god to spare land creatures to survive his wrath because of some 'crime' . The 600 year old man having a little chat with god is enough to make me think twice.
If you give this wild story to another group of people still the problems remain.. if only one group of humans were on board then surely the whole of human kind could not have evolved from that group of people..

add that one two it if you like to sort 'us' out ...the timeline is just so skewed ..i bet you could not make one.??

 

It seems to me frighteningly obvious that the Noah story could not have happened, for several reasons. Even if you want to go with "kinds" in the way you described, there would still never be enough room, or food, or waste disposal, for all of the millions of species out there. Ok, so not every species goes. We're still talking about hundreds of thousands of kinds. Also, for rain to fall at the rate needed in the bible, it would have to be insanely high rainfall at at such force that it would have destroyed everything (ark included) as though it were a comet strike. You know you can cut stone with pressurized water, quarry workers do it all the time. http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html

If you go by kinds, you have to accept evolution to get the diversity we have. The problem is, evolution cannot produce such staggering results in just 3 or 4 thousand years. It is not possible for such dramatic change in such a small time.

And by the way, Toy Poodles and Great Danes did not get bred from the grey wolf in just 200 years. The wolf/dog was domesticated at least by 14,000 years ago. Distinctive breeds (sight hounds, mastiff-like guard dogs, etc) have been around for many thousands of years, so seperate breed-lines had already been seperated for a very long time and took millenia to get such specific breeds.

 

..? what timeline? make what?

they didn't narrow it down to one, it was seven completely seperate lines of DNA (i suppose they just thought the seven daughters of eve was a good title?), and it's not all human DNA, just european, but you should definatley check it out its an interesting read

 

That means the DNA of those women was most successful and came to dominate in a much larger population (which included many other women)...it does not mean there were at one time only seven women on earth. The wording in these reports is often misleading. I'm sure you knew that, but many people don't.

 

i see how it might work now.


but i was always under the impression those kinds of splits in "kinds" of animals took a lot longer than 10,000 years.

and how long was noahs ark considered to have taken place?



as for the matter of sea creatures. i don't think there would be any point in taking them on an ark if they were already aquatic and didn't need to be saved.

 

This story happened at some time ..going on the noah story its about 4300 years ago.. but then this story may have been passed on from other civilisations..so the time gets pushed back..

I am assuming that noahs family was only one race .. so

only one line of DNA would have survived i guess .. but going on what happened with the creatures its possible that the whole diverse humankind came from this one group...

 

yeah but i thought the creatures were being judged clean and unclean so?? but i did not see any mention of the sea creatures anyway ..this is why i asked why leave them out ??