Noah's Ark 2004

So we are agreed so far, more or less anyway. My calculations, probably using a slightly larger cubit, came to a total volume of 1.618 million cubic feet.

Hold on there, just where did you get this firgure of "16,000 animals"?

Oh, he didn't take the insects did he? Where then did they come from or how did they survive the flood?

Really? How was Noah able to incubate the eggs? Once the egs hatched, the birds eggs anyway, how did the baby birds survive? All bird species require adult birds to feed the baby birds for anywhere from two weeks to several months. And don't try and tell me that Noah did it. There is simply no way that he could have known about and found all of the required food even if he did he would never have had time to do anything else, epecially after the flood was over and he and the baby birds were left on a desolate and barren landscape. Also, if he took only eggs of some species, how did he know that he was taking one male and one female? You can't tell just by looking at the outside of the egg.

"Species" is the most specific classification in the Linnean hierarchy which is as follows: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. Sometimes "subphylum" is included between Phylum and class. Two animals of opposite sex can be said to be of the same species of they can breed and produce fertile offspring. For example, while horse and donkey can breed and produce offspring they are not of the same species since their offsrping, mules, are infertile. Fertile Mules have been known to exist as result of some genetic mutation, but once we get into the realm of genetic mutation we are talking about something completely different. But I had figured that you already knew all of this, it is fairly elementary.

Okay, what's your point? We also know that amphibians evolved from fish, that reptiles evolved from amphibians, that dinosaurs evloved from reptiles, that birds evolved from dinosaurs, and that mammals evolved from reptiles as well. So why didn't Noah just take a couple of lung fish on the ark and hope that they evolved back into everything else?

Except that all of these examples assume a fairly large base population to begin with. Noah took only two of each animal. While natural selection can happen very quickly, it is also the case that the animlas involve die more often than they live. This is exactly how it works, all of the unfit animals die out leaving only the fit ones. From base populations of two Noah would have had to have taken super animals that could survive every single climate on earth.


I'll get to the rest of your post later, I have to go now. I will, however, leave you with this. When the flood was over the ark landed high up in the mountians on a now totally lifeless planet, so what did the animals eat? What, for example, did the Lions eat? The only animlas that the Lions could have eaten happened to be the last of their kind. So did the Lions cause extinctions? How about Tigers, what did they eat? What did alligators eat, what did the predatory birds eat? How about herbivorious animals. Since all plant life would have been wiped out in the flood what did they eat? For that matter what did Noah and his family eat?

 

professor, I really think that you're over-thinking this whole topic.

 

ProfessorJ,

Ya,, I think whats happening is your supplying an Ark-full of What-ifs.
Nothing wrong with that either but you get us into a situation where there is a solution or problem to any of these 'What-ifs'.

How did they get food?
Ok.. maybe Noah had lots of provisions.
Maybe he didnt?
Maybe they feasted on carcasses and washed up vegetation?

Then you can say - "Well what if the vegetation was rotten!"

Let me address two issues I think you might be misunderstaning a bit:

When we talk about natural selection, we dont need millions of years. This is not speaking of upward evolution where new genetic information is appearing in each generation over millions of generations.

Natural selection can work extremely fast.
If you have a sibling - you might have noticed that you selected a lot of different genes from your parents than they did!

Depending on climates and random gene pool separations - the 'Siblings' of the Parent Cats (were just guessing it was Sabretooths) could become Lions and Tigers very very quickly!

.........

Just to clarify something - there were two of every kind, but in the case of what they called 'Clean animals' there were 5 extra ones.

So something like Cats would have a base population of Seven.
This is probably Three 'pairs' and one extra.
(again.. we are just assuming he didnt take 7 males lol)

You need to keep in mind - the original 'kinds' had ALL the genetic variations that any of the offspring may select.
Our 'SabreTooth' Cat would have all the possible genetic information which could be found in any type of Cat today.

.......

I honestly dont know how to incubate eggs so you might have a good point on that one?
Maybe there were two birds and the eggs didnt count as birds until hatched??

 

Some people believe the flood never happened. Yet if that is true, could someone please explain why they are finding Pillar lava on the top of mount Ararat. You see, pillar lava can only occure when a volcanic vent is underwater. So my question is, why are they finding pillar lava at 14,000 feet?

 

Ok, so it is evident that a few people refuse to believe the flood actualy happened. It's ok though. We run into this type of thing often. First off(non believers really hate this) this is God's plan here. I really don't know how Noah was able to feed all the animals or keep everything clean(sanitation wise). I do have my own opinions on some of these matters, however, let's look at the basic problem here. It isn't just the fact that non believers see this as imposable, it's more along the fact that they do not want to accept anything they don't or can't understand. So, in that same logic(where a non believer refuses to believe) let's ask a deeper question that relates in a way to the repopulation of the earth. I wonder, if God didn't create us, and we evolved from some micro organic life form that formed from some electric storm out in sea, how did we as humans become so many? Oh, and how did we all become so different? Wait, and how did we get all over the earth? I honestly have no clue as to what or how you would answer this without creation in mind. Point is, we humans are very different from each other, and we are spread all over this world. Amazingly, this topic is spoke of in The Bible.

Now, some people will ask "Ok, well, then what about proof? Ah ha, we couldn't get ya on how, but we got ya now on proof". Well, hold on a second. First off, lets look at the layout of the world in it's current form. I am sure you all remeber from way back in the day at school that big ole world map laid out flat. Did you ever notice how each continent looked like a puzzle piece? Were you ever tempted to cut each one out and tape them back together? It really is amazing to see how it all fit's together. So, we are now at a time when the world as we know it was different. When everything is together and not spread out. "Ok, but that still doesn't proove anything" LOL, hold on a sec, I'm not finnished. So Noah build the ark, and In Genesis 6:19–20, the Bible says that two of every sort of land vertebrate (seven of the 'clean' animals) were brought by God to the Ark(that answers your question of how all the animals were gathered). This would also include those ever popular dinosaurs. "Hold on hold on, wait a minute, you are telling me now that not only you believe the great flood happened, but that also dinosaurs were onboard and alive at the same time man was? This doesn't proove anything except that you are insaine!" Yes yes, I know, a lot of non believers feel this way. Let me continue will you? In the end this will all come together. We all know and believe that dinosaurs existed at some point and time on this earth. We also know that in order to find proof of these dinosaurs one must look under the surface of the earth. Now, those wonderful evolutionists would say that these great animals(and not all dinosaurs were big) died from some huge meteor that struck the earth and killed everything living on it(wich odly enough means that the whole evolution process had to start from scratch again). Here is what I say. God gathered all the animals for Noah to put on the Ark.."WAIT!!! Dinosaurs wern't around then! They.." Hold on..you sure do interupt a lot. In the book of Job, you read of some things happening to a man. I quote

Not only is that proof from the Biblical aspect, but he also provides proof from the historical aspect, and I quote

 

300 characters to long, had to break it up:


Ok? Can I continue now? "Hrmm, ok go on". Alrighty then. So, now Noah has all the creatures God gathered, and the great flood begins. Now so many years later, we see that there is loads of evidence burried underground of what happened in the past. Let me ask you, when you stand on the beach at the shore line and let the water go over your feet, what happens? Your feet begin to get covered in sand correct? Well look at what we have here...A huge flood, covering the entire world and evintualy burying everything. "Wait wait WAIT. What about human fossils?" Good question, you don't miss much do you? http://www.bible.ca/tracks/malachite-man.htm

Well, there ya have it. We Christians believe in The Word of God. God shows us evidence that can't be denied(though in the end, many will still refute it). From the gathering of the animals, to the building of the Ark, to the great flood that wiped out the earth, to the evidence left behind, we Christians believe in The Word of God.

 

Does this mean we have believers now? A whole day without anyone replying. Praise The Lord!

 

Awwww come on, no more debate? Ok, so if everyone here now believes that the flood happened, that means you are admiting that God exists. Now it is just plane ole denial if you refuse Jesus Christ.

 

Great job man. It's hard for the other side to debate when all the evidence is on your side. Keep up the good work.

 

A 450 foot boat made of wood would sink. Steel reinforcement would be necessary to keep it’s shape. Not even 19th century engineers could build a boat that big out of wood alone. The wood would distort in the water, and without steel reinforcement, would spring hundreds of leaks.

Not only that but, the amount of water needed to flood the continents cannot be found in the oceans, ice caps, rocks, or atmosphere -all combined-. If water was pumped out from inside earth's crust, it would carry with it noxious sulfur rich gases that would leave creatures unable to breathe.

A global flood would have changed the atmosphere of the earth to the point that the water vapor dissolved in the air would cause creatures to drown by breathing and atmospheric pressure would crush lungs.

 

Really? Can yuo proove it? Or is it just speculation and math? Have you attempted to build a boat that size? Have you caused it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights to see what would happen? Perhaps we were at a lower elevation at that time. Your science and theories are no match for hard evidence such as what I have give nyou. Try as you might, in the end, you will fail.

 

That's the thing- nobody has attempted to build a boat that size out of wood alone, because it would sink. Engineering and physics, its very simple.

Lower elevation, as in, higher sea level? This would just mean that less water is locked up in glaciers at the poles. Either way, the water needed to flood the continents does not exist -oceans, glaciers, rocks, and atmosphere- combined.

huh?
I have not seen you give any 'hard evidence'.
I am going to fail? What do you mean? Fail what?

 

Bandit28

Technically, do you think there is a difference between understanding there has been a great flood (this is depicted in most religion and cults older than Torah)
and call himself a Christian?

 

Yes, its very simple.
Unfortunately, not the way you have assumed.

They have re-created Noahs Ark in numerous scaled models (which is really a 'Barge') and it most certainly does float.
There is every reason to believe it was re-inforced with iron, however, all wood boats can work.
Engineering and Physics is how it works. Simple indeed.

I wish you could see the terrible mistake you are making.
You propose that 'If' such a cataclysm ever happened it would 'therefore' completely re-arrange the environment as we know it.
Then..
(and watch this)
You presume the conditions of the earth were both the same before and after this hypothetical cataclysm!?

'IF' the earth was flooded like that, then how in the world of all things logical would or could we assume the earth was 'the same' as it is now?
Certainly this would be the 'aftermath' and whatever was prior would certainly be different.

Im not going to call for you to 'Fail' or anything like that.

Im just going to encourage you to investigate well-inderstood scientific findings demonstrating (not theorising) that there most certainly was a massive flood in (at least) the Black Sea region.

It well understood and Universally agreed that most any part of the earth has been either underwater or awashed in sediment at 'some point'.

This is why seashells are found on mountain tops and dinosaurs found encased in hardened mud.

So, 'IF' you are going to insist the world hasn't been flooded then you will probably fail alright.

You 'Can' attempt to prove these were millions of 'localised' floods' over 'millions of years.
Yes - you have a chance that way.

btw.. one of many articles on the now universally understood 'Great Flood' you can check out this article.
(NOT a 'Creation Science' website but a Petroleum Researcher Site)
http://www.aapg.org/explorer/1999/04apr/greatflood.html

 

Please offer a link where I can see a 450 foot 'barge' that is made completely out of wood float on a stormy ocean for 40 days and 40 nights.

And no, there is no reason to believe it was reinforced with iron because the bible describes it's construction and it says nothing about iron.

Brock, you seem to be confused here.

I say- 'A global flood would have changed the atmosphere of the earth to the point that the water vapor dissolved in the air would cause creatures to drown by breathing and atmospheric pressure would crush lungs.'

I said nothing about 'a complete re-arrangement of the environment'. I spoke exclusively of earth's atmosphere.

Brock, brother, I presumed nothing about 'the CONDITIONS of earth' pre and post flood. You are exaggerating your terms greatly.

What I have done, -pre and post flood-, is safely presumed that the amount of water we find on earth (oceans, atmosphere, rocks, and glaciers) has not changed.

I never assumed that, pre and post flood, 'the EARTH was the same'. You are giving a completely false impression of what I said.

I said the amount of water that exists on our planet is the same!

Water re-cycles itself on earth, it does not leave the atmosphere. The amount of water that existed 2,000 years ago, still exists now -and it has never been enough to completely flood the continents-.

I am familiar with this flood and Robert Ballard's research of it. The Black Sea flood happens to be a perfect model for an event that birthed legends of a world-wide flood among ancient peoples in that area of the world.

 

So lets just stop and agree on this much.

This is pretty signifigant and worth stopping and examing.
Have no idea why you wouldnt even mention this before?

We can all agree that a massive flood did indeed cover this part of the earth.

It fine if you want to believe it could not have covered more of the earth or that it happened 7,000 years ago and not 5,000.

However,

Worth mentioning next time you suggest there is nothing to the flood accounts.
You all but agreed there WAS a cataclysmic flood.
Come on.

 

Brock, you are confusing yourself again.

Note that all of my posts can be read here on page #4.

I want you to go back over my posts and see that I argued, exclusively, against a WORLDWIDE flood; never against a 'cataclysmic' flood.

Thus, it follows that I also argued against the notion of a 450 foot all wood boat being the salvation for terrestrial life on earth.

I also remind you, Brock, that this thread is on the subject of Noah's ark. From where we are settled at this point, you seem to be agreeing that the account of the ark in Genesis is not factual or literal.

Because there are simpler means of disproving the biblical account of a worldwide flood. Sometime I will present a great deal of information on the Black Sea Flood.

 

If there was not a WORLDWIDE flood, could someone explain why they are finding pillar lava at the 14,000 foot altitude on mount Ararat? Pillar lava can only be formed when a volcanic vent is submerged underwater.

 

Ok, first you are going to have to elaborate on, or specify, what this 'pillar lava' is that you speak of.

 

Then you can go back and note to yourself that I never asserted otherwise.

I DID mention that you have (until now) failed to mention that you do believe in a cataclysmic flood that whiped out the 'known world' or Ancient Mesopotamia and virtualy all of its terrestrial life.

This is pretty signifigant when you are making the claim a world-wide flood never happened.
You might want to mention your belief in a cataclysmic flood in the beginning so we all have a point of agreement to begin with?

'Thus it followed' that you brought up another distinct assertion unto itself that the boat as described in Genesis could not float.
Though Scale models of this boat DO FLOAT - you changed it to a demand to see an actual size boat.

You also insisted iron rods could not have been used becasue the general diagram and instructions did not specify it.
So now you insist it was 'All wood' and did not have anything else.

According to you - it did not have a rudder, bathrooms or dove-tailed woodwork because 'It does not state that'?

No it does not seem that way.

How does the word 'Because' start this assertion.
Never mind.

Do you actually intend to 'Disprove' the Worldwide flood by agreeing that there was a massive Black Sea Flood?
This should be fascinating to watch!