Noah's Ark 2004

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by cerridwen, May 14, 2004.

  1. cerridwen

    cerridwen in stitches

    There are a handful of forums I could've posted this in, but I thought it'd get the most reads from here... have fun!

    It is the year 2004 and Noah lives in the United States.

    The Lord speaks to Noah and says: "In one year I am going to make it rain and cover the whole earth with water until all is destroyed. But I want you to save the righteous people and two of every kind of living thing on the earth. Therefore, I am commanding you to build an Ark."

    In a flash of lightning, God delivered the specifications for an Ark. Fearful and trembling, Noah took the plans and agreed to build the Ark. "Remember," said the Lord, "You must complete the Ark and bring everything aboard in one year."

    Exactly one year later, a fierce storm cloud covered the earth and all the seas of the earth went into a tumult. The Lord saw Noah sitting in his front yard weeping. "Noah." He shouted, "Where is the Ark?"


    "Lord, please forgive me!" cried Noah. "I did my best, but there were big problems. First, I had to get a permit for construction and your plans did not comply with the codes. I had to hire an engineering firm and redraw the plans. Then I got into a fight with the fire department over whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system and floatation
    devices.


    "Then my neighbor objected, claiming I was violating zoning ordinances by building the Ark in my front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning commission. I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting trees to protect the Spotted Owl. I finally convinced the U.S. Forest Service that I needed the wood to save the owls. However, the Fish and Wildlife Service won't let me catch any owls. So, no owls."

    "The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Union. Now I have 16 carpenters on the Ark, but still no owls."

    "When I started rounding up the other animals, I got sued by an animal rights group. They objected to me only taking two of each kind aboard.

    Just when I got the suit dismissed, the EPA notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your proposed flood. They didn't take very kindly to the idea that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of the Creator of the Universe."

    "Then the Army Corps of Engineers demanded a map of the proposed new flood plain. I sent them a globe."

    "Right now, I am trying to resolve a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that I am practicing discrimination by not taking godless, unbelieving people aboard! The IRS has seized all my assets, claiming that I'm building the Ark in preparation to flee the country to avoid paying taxes. I just got a notice from the state that I owe some kind of user tax and failed to register the Ark as a recreational water craft."

    "Finally the ACLU got the courts to issue an injunction against further construction of the Ark, saying that since God is flooding the earth, it is a religious event, therefore unconstitutional. I really don't think I can finish the Ark for another 5 or 6 years!" Noah wailed.

    The sky began to clear, the sun began to shine and the seas began to calm. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up hopefully. "You mean you are not going to destroy the earth, Lord?"


    "No," said the Lord sadly. "The government already has."


     
  2. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Ha!
    And I bet that could be changed about to fit Canada or Wales too (based on the nonsensical regulation madness in those countries too) lol!

    I know a lot of people got tired of all the ill-fated attempt to climb Mt. Ararat and look for Noahs' Ark. I did. Especially after that Astronaut died up there.

    The funniest thing happened - Last Summer, Europe had that deadly heat-wave and it seems the snows melted off that 'peculiar' area on Ararat, revealing those 'objects' again.

    Now a whole new team of climbers are planning a big expedition.
    Honestly, I hope they make it and put to rest 'whatever' that thing is up there.

    If its not Noahs Ark then GOOD...... we wont have to wonder anymore lol!

    Check out this link
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4838007/?GT1=3256

    Personally.. it looks like a pile of rocks to me??
     
  3. Harmony_rain

    Harmony_rain Keeper of the Stars

    I accually watched a special on the ark once and it was really interesting to see all the things they found that could prove that it is the lost ark. The messured the area of the imprint and found it to be of accuret size to fit all those animals. They also found stones far down the mountains that had holes drilled through the top that could be used as anchors on Noah's ship. I think its an awsome thing to find. I hope they discove more when they go back up.
     
  4. seahorse

    seahorse Senior Member

    hey guys, i was excited to see this thread, but I was expecting to read something about the news special on CNN that elaborates on the actual trip up mount Aaraat planned for this summer 2004!!!

    the article I read said that last summer the heat wave in Europe revealed a shape under the snow and ice that was so many feet wide and so many feet long. A team for the climb has been put together for the exciting adventure, and I can't wait to see what happens! Could you imagine? they find Noah's ark!!!???what a witness to the world eh? that would be awesome, I am praying that they find it for sure!
    I'll try to find the link so y'all can read it for yerselves, if they even keep old news in archives, which they probably do. also, there are websites out there that are dedicated to Noah's ark, you might be able to find some interesting facts if you look it up on your search engines.
    let 'em have it Lord!!!LOL
     
  5. seahorse

    seahorse Senior Member

  6. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    That Mountain reminds me of the Oak Island 'treasure pit' in the sense that it seems to be 'cursed'.
    There have been hundreds of expeditions planned, yet always scrapped.
    - The cold war and the fact its right on the border of the former USSR
    - Unpredictable weather patterns always seem to protect it lol
    - Turkish Islamic Militants were busy fighting with the Turk Gov for years.
    - Or..... people just die trying and they gotta retreat.

    Turns out... The KGB knew about that 'shape' for the last 40 years. They had recon flights over it just to make sure it wasnt an allied 'spy base' LOL!

    Personally.. if it turns out to be a pile of rocks then I will be happy because it will end the speculation.... at least on THAT section.

    Harmony... I did see that site with the loadstones. For a while it was the 'official' Noahs Ark but now Im hearing they think its a natural formation, or, an ancient encampment.
    Its still pretty 'curious' that it fits the shape of the Ark and there are anchors lying around?!

    Cool stuff!
     
  7. ChiefCowpie

    ChiefCowpie hugs and bugs

    the story of noah's ark is actually an ancient Sumerian myth that was borrowed by the Hebrews...it would only prove the validity of the Sumerian myths
     
  8. cerridwen

    cerridwen in stitches

    It's been a while since I've been to church or practiced catholisism... but I do still find it rather interesting when there are discoveries made that proves events of the bible... it's kinda cool!
     
  9. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    I noticed a logic problem in your logic correction ChiefCowPie...

    The Sumerian are the oldest known records of a global flood and of a 'Noah'.

    This can mean THREE things:

    -The Flood did indeed happen and consequently there are many records (as would be expected) in the Ancient cultures.

    - The Sumerians copied there story from somewhere else although WE just happen to have found their version first (including early Hebrews who had not yet written Genesis 'officially')

    - The Hebrews derived their story from Gilgamesh.

    Just wanted to point that out to avoid confusion.
     
  10. ChiefCowpie

    ChiefCowpie hugs and bugs

    yes the flood happened and many ancient cultures have similar accounts of a flood

    the sumerians could not have copied it from elsewhere cuz sumeria is the cradle of civilization

    ummm...gilgamesh was a sumerian

    no logic problem

    just wanted to point that out to avoid confusion.
     
  11. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    There are at least two logic problems in this alone.
    More if you count your second reply.

    I will just let you solve them on your own time :D

    Hint... The story of Noah's ark would 'therefore' be a Hebrew Myth derived from a Sumerian Myth.

    Hint.. IF it was Noahs Ark discovered then it would prove the validity of who's Ark?

    Oh well.. personaly I think its a huge pile of rocks on that mountain... I just cant see how a wooden ark would still be intact after 5000 years and be sitting on top of the mountain like that????
     
  12. ChiefCowpie

    ChiefCowpie hugs and bugs

    maritime law concerning lost ships in international waters is that they are owned by the sea until they are found and then its finders keepers, but since the ship is believed to be found within the territorial borders of turkey on mt. ararat, it would belong to turkey

    but this may be contested both by israel and iraq (present day sumeria) with both laying claim to the boat much like an airplane that crashes belongs to the country it originated with except in military/spy operations where such a vehicle is confiscated

    it could as well be deemed that the boat had militaristic implications since God unleeshed a premeditated first strike upon his enemies and noah was in league with God

    i expect this to be a hotly contested ownership issue if the ark is found
     
  13. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    Yeah, right the flood really happened. It really is fantastically pathetic that people still think that it occured.

    How did Noah get all of the animals? Where did he get the penguins for example? The temperature and salinity changes that would have occured in the oceans in such a flood would have destroyed all sea life, so how did he get all of the fish and whales and corals (yes corals are animals, not plants) on the boat? All plant life would have been wiped out, so how did Noah and the animals survive after the flood? While on the ark what did the Lions eat? Where did Noah keep all of the food anyhow. Come to think of it, where did he put the animals? The combined mass and the combined volume of two of every animal species is far great than a boat that size could have contained. Did God shrink the animals down real small? How did Noah keep the animals alive? He would have needed a massive powersupply to keep all of the various rooms properly climate controlled, penguins and alligators cannot live in the same environment. Where did the water for the flood come from? Where did it go? To completely cover the earth in forty days the rain would have had to have been so intense as to be the equivalent of a fire hose spraying down on every single square inch of the planet's surface. The heat generated thereby (yes this would generate quite alot of heat) would have been great enough to boil the oceans.
     
  14. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Although its not explicitly stated in the account - its a good guess that Noah took new-born (or very young) animals.
    He also took two or seven of each 'kind'.

    Based on the measurements given, it is certainly possible.

    (Im pretty sure that marine life were not included)

    As to ventilation, feeding etc... no details are given. sorry.
     
  15. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    Well marine life was not mentioned in the Bible as being included, this though is a problem. I repeat, the tempertaure and salinity changes alone in a flood of such magnitude would have wiped out all marine life with the probable exception of mircoorganisms. So if marine life was not taken on the ark then how did it surive the flood?

    In terms of Volume of the ark, using the longest interpretation of that cubit, 18 inches. At "300 cubits, by 50 cubits, by 30 cubits" we arrive at a volume of 1,618,750 cubic feet. Now, given that there are estimated to be nearly 3 billion species of land animals, and given that Noah took two of each, we are left with a figure (rounded up) of .0003 cubic feet or .0036 cubic inches for each animal.

    Additionally, how did Noah buit such a big wooden boat? It was made of wood, right? All the technology in the world today would be hard pressed to build a wooden boat so large, or at least one so large that would still hold up under the conditions of a world-wide flood?

    And of course there is still the matter of how Noah was able to travel all around the world collecting two of every single species in less than a year and still have time to build the ark. Did Noah really go treking out to the Amazon rainforest? To Antarctica? To New Zealand? To Alaska?
     
  16. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Your making the terrrible assumption the world was the same as it is today.

    It could not have been.

    Noah would have taken two (or seven) of each 'Kind'.
    This would not equal three billion species.

    Just as an example. Noah would have taken a litter of Grey Wolves (or even the pre-cursor to that animal) NOT all 500+ types of Dog-Kind animals you see today.

    After the flood, the geneticly rich 'kinds' would be dispersed and natural selection (especially in a new and maybe harsher world) would have caused all the kinds to specialise into what we now know as billions of species.

    Its highly unlikely the world geography was the same as today. There would not have been an 'Alaska' or 'Tropical amazon'. with 'already specialised' kinds of animals.

    While its said 'Noah built the Ark' its probably safe to say this is like saying 'Donald Trump' built the Trump Towers.
    Certainly he had crews and labourers and probably even hired skilled craftsmen etc.
    No one is suggesting he did it alone by hand.

    Same goes for his zoo collection. No one is suggesting he just forraged around in the woods on his spare time away from the Ark.
     
  17. Professor Jumbo

    Professor Jumbo Mr. Smarty Pants

    Yes it would, that is what "each kind" means. Two (or seven) of each kind means just that, of each kind. It does not mean just of few, leaving most kinds behaind as you seem to think.

    Exactly, the 500+ domesticated dog breeds are still just one species so he woulod have taken two dogs, though there are several specis of wild dogs. If we were talking breeds of animals (as you seem to be) instead of species then the number becomes far higher than 3 billion. If you want to make sense you will need to come up with a consistent definition of "kinds". For example, cows and blue whales are in the same biological class, does this mean that they are of the same kind?

    Right, in 4,000 or so supposed years since the flood. This is so ridiculous as to be laughable. It does support evolution though, ironically enough. The Bible doesn't support it though. But, let us assume that by some miracle (God is good at those) this actually happened. Now how did all of those animals get from the Mountains of Ararat to where they are today? Penguins, (I like them as you probably have noticed) how did penguins (or whatever non-specific Bird that Noah took) evolve into penguins and then get to Antarctica, an environment in which no bird native to the middle east could hope to survive for more than two hours? How did kangaroos and wallabies get to Australia? Did they swim? Did they fly?

    So the only animals alvie just happened to be in Naoh's backyard so to speak? Was the rest of the world devoid of life? Specific geography does not matter. What matter is the size of the planet and the fact that life must have been present nearly everywhere.

    Of course he didn't do it alone, he has his sons Shem, Ham ,and Japheth. Nothing at all ever is mentioned about him having a giant work crew. Even if he did it does not matter. Even with every piece of modern ship building know how and technology a viable wooden boat that big simply cannot be built. It is not a question of having a crew or not. People have tried, most within the past 100 years, to build wooden boats that big and failed. How then was Noah (and his supposed crew) able to do it so effortlessly.

    Okay, so the question remains then. How did he get all of the animals? You say that he didn't go and get them. Did they come to him? Or did he have a crew for that too? Did he have a crew for chopping down all of the trees? From milling the lumber? A crew for drying and curing it? For bringing it to the construction site? For making all of tools, many of which would have to have been designed from the ground up for such an immense project? If he had crews for all of this we are now in the realm of tens of thousands of people working on the ark.
     
  18. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    I dont see a problem here but then again - Im not great at math.

    One site gives this:

    The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep.

    If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), that is 75,000 cm3 (cubic centimetres) or 4800 cubic inches, the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. Even if a million insect species had to be on board, it would not be a problem, because they require little space. If each pair was kept in cages of 10 cm (four inches) per side, or 1000 cm3, all the insect species would occupy a total volume of only 1000 m3, or another 12 cars. This would leave room for five trains of 99 cars each for food, Noah’s family and ‘range’ for the animals. However, insects are not included in the meaning of behemah or remes in Genesis 6:19-20, so Noah probably would not have taken them on board as passengers anyway.

    Ive seen this forumla worked out by numerous different people and it does work out if you assume that we are looking at young animals.
    Some suggest that something like Alligators or birds might even have been taken in the egg stages too. (well.. thats sensible)



    Its true that modern (ok.. 18th century people) came up with all kinds of classifications for animals.
    These often change or are found to be subjective classifications (i.e. is a bear from the dog kind or another kind to itself?.. lately they are now saying Bears are from the dog family)

    There has been a lot of changes in all this because of DNA analysis and archaelogical finds.
    For example.. we just recently found out that Polar bears are basically Grizzly cousins. There is very very little difference (although superficially we thought they was a lot more distance between them genetically)

    With Noahs Ark and the 'Kinds' we would be looking at one kind of Cat.
    This might even be a Cat that no longer exists in itself anymore (like the Sabre Tooth Tiger)
    So there would not be three billion species (again.. I dont know what you think a 'species' means?)

    Theres no real problem here. We know all Cats have a common ancestor.

    [off tangent - a nature show i watched suggested that cats AND dogs both come from a common 'hyena' type ancestor.. which seems outlandish to me]


    You can laugh all you want but you will probably feel silly when you see how quickly natural selection can weed out genetics that dont suit the environment.
    Domestic cats brought over to North America who then were separated into the wild managed to eliminate short-hair genes within a few dozen generations (and brutal winters).
    The 'bush' coloured ones faired better than the colourful ones and now the descendants are 'camoflauged' quite nicely.

    A 'man-made' version is Dog-Breeding. New Breeds were bred out very quickly.. although this is mans hand pushing the genes - dont think dramatic climate changes wouldnt be just as effective.

    Speaking of which........ your next question of 'how did they get there?'

    IF you are going to premise the argument on 'Lets say The flood story was true...."
    then please stick with that.

    After the landing on Mr.Ararat we can guess all the animals went off on their merry ways.
    It was not until AFTER those days that we see the Earth divided.

    As you would expect - gene pools became 'cut off' from others and consequently you would find unique 'kinds' on the separated continents.

    Believe me.. animals can move and travel huge distances and we see that happening in just one or two generations today.
    Coyotes are now a regular feature west of the Rockies.. and they USED to be a Prairie animal just a few generations ago.
    (Grizzlies too.. in fact. .. many people are stunned to know Grizzlies used to be Prairie dwellers just a few generations ago!)

    We dont know exactly what the Earth was like back then but we make some assumptions based on the text and our own discoveries.
    The Earth was not divided.
    The Earth was full of huge tropical vegetation
    Animal kinds may have lived 'everywhere'

    I really dont see any problem here. At worst case - he was importing animal kinds from different regions.
    This is not 'crazy talk' since we know full well Babylonians, Greeks, Romans all did the same things.


    No.. its doesnt say he had a crew - but when you read 'Herod built a Temple it doesnt explicitly say he had thousands of contractors either.

    I have no idea why you keep emphasising 'Wooden' but let me assure you that wood does indeed float.
    I cant imagine why anyone would actually try and rebuild a life-sized Ark but I do know that many people have re-created models and...
    ... Yep.. it floats just fine thanks.
    [I will say this... to my knowledge no one is 100% sure what kind of wood 'Gopher wood' is meant to be in our modern class. It was obviously some plentiful wood of the day]

    I dont agree with your estimate of 'tens of thousands'.

    It would definately take hundreds of men.
    Not all were necessarily labourers - many may have been only hired to move or transport.
    Basically - this is no different than anything else you would build .. now or then.

    I really dont know why this presents a dilema for you?

    Yes.. its pretty amazing!

    So was the Colossus at Rhodes or the Pyramids.. i agree!

    The Ark would not necessarily compare to the Pyramids but yes... its an amazing construction for sure!
     
  19. ncsu123

    ncsu123 Member

    good story, they havent found any geological evidence to support the flood though
     
  20. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Ya, I hate to tell you this NCSU - but you are about 20 years behind on your geology ;)

    Seriously though. Yes there is plenty of obvious evidence all the world has been underwater at some point.
    What you are probably getting stuck on is the 'how many times' and over 'how long' debates.

    While everyone agrees there has been a flood at any place on earth - Some say these were thousands and even milllions of 'localised floods'.

    Of course, those who stick with Noah believe it was one gigantic flood at one time.

    Midnight, I think you were watching the documentary (ies) regarding the Mesopatamian Basin?
    For those who hadnt heard its a funny story...

    Back in the 'Iron Curtain' days the Russians were doing their own thing in the Caspian sea.
    While down there - they came across a rather stunning little thing... An entire beach front way beneath the shores.
    After a few decades of uncovering the beachlines around the sea it was pretty clear there was only one possible explanation by default.
    (assuming someone didnt build an ancient beach at submarine level ;)

    So the Russians knew that the whole area had been flooded at some point in history.. and it was a massive flood at that. (were talking Noah sized flood!)

    Nowadays its pretty much self-evident to everyone (of all sciences) there was indeed a massive deluge.
    This time, many critics of Genesis say that while ..Yes, there is historical and scientific proof of a 'world' flood - they insist that it was 'Noahs World' only. (The Mesopotamia region of Earth)
    They argue that 'to Noah' it would appear as if the entire planet itself was flooded since this was the 'whole world' to their minds.

    ... Another interesting change over here in my part of the world...

    As you may know - you can climb to some of the highest peaks in the Rocky Mountains, break apart some Shale and find fossilised Marine life.
    For as long as I can recall the 'official' explanation was that originally these were 'sea beds' but then the mountains were formed after the fossils and uplifted to these heights.

    Somewhere in the last 10 years (i dont recall any announcements) the 'official' explanation was discarded and now they are saying the Rockies were indeed full of water. Huge gigantic lakes filled all the valleys.

    Scientific explanations continue to change but oddly, they are always getting closer and closer to the original account of Noah it seems.
     

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