News Just In

Discussion in 'U.K.' started by PIXIEFIED, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    farthers for justice are not trying to stop a huge money spinning industry though. there for they dont have the full weight of the goverment/police force/media against them.
    the media are the ones responsible for painting this picture about animal rights activists where as fathers for justice is one that will sell papers if there on the same side. theres a shit load of propoghanda goin on against ar at the moment in the press and on tv. i thought people on here might see thru that bullshit. cus what ever u wanna belive, it isnt true.
    yeah body gettin dug up was a mistake by someone, but everyones talking about all this violence, what fucking violence???? its nonsence.
    pull ya heads out the gutters.
     
  2. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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  3. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    Well I did not give an opinion because to be honest I do not know much about the lieberation of Belsen, therefore stupid of me to comment.

    Howeever, as I have said before, it all depends on the situation. The Nazi's in World War 2, violence was neccesary, Britain and other countries had tried talks and formal reasons which proved to be unsuccsesful, also, we are talking about a major army here, a large country, and the had a powerful and motivational, and extremely evil.

    While I still disagree with the testing on animals, it is a movement of a lot smaller numbers, their actions not supported by a lot of people (I know noone who is in support of cosmetics testing, apart from my brother, but don't ask) and they (to my knowledge) have no leader anything near Hitler. The problem isn't as widely spread. Also, where are the peaceful protests? The push on governments? I'm sure they exist, but they are undermined by the violent attacks. People are not going to give their support while the attacks still go on.

    There are plenty more conflicts where I think violence was unjustified, and unneccesary. Such as the current war in Iraq, the Vietnam war etc.

    Peace can have much more of an impact than violence, as Ghandi proved.

    As another point to whether it's right or wrong to use violence, I still feel that to be more succesful in their efforts, they would be better off not using violence. They would most probably get a lot more suport from the general public, therefore the push on the governments would be much greater. Asides from whether it is right or wrong, I do believe (althuogh normally someone proves me wrong :D) that a lot more support from the public, who agree with the views but disagree with violence used in this situation, and would become a stronger movement.
     
  4. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    ill say it again, what violence???????????????????????????????????????????
     
  5. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    violence is usually directed at protesters, not the otherway round. there the ones who commit violence, stop reading the fucking papers

    quote
    Based in and around the village of Newchurch, Staffordshire they have a number of stinking, windowless sheds where tens of thousands of guinea pigs are imprisoned at any one time awaiting torment inside laboratories and universities across the world.
    This business have been a party to the scientific and moral myth of vivisection for nearly half a decade. During this time those involved have:

    • Destroyed thousands of guinea pigs with their bare hands because they were below money-making standards.

    • Caused the death of thousands more guinea pigs through their enforced confinement, malnutrition and neurosis.

    • Sent hundreds of thousands to be aimlessly killed in universites and laboratories for cosmetic and product testing and wholly unscientific 'medical research'.

    • Left several peaceful protesters needing hospital treatment (including facial injuries and serious head wounds).

    • Proudly profitted from an industry which has been directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of human beings.

    • Amassed much of these riches from one of their biggest customers Huntingdon Life Sciences
     
  6. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    Are you trying to suggest that Animal Liberation Activists have never used violence?
     
  7. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    give me a example of it then since you keep mentioning it
     
  8. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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  9. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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  10. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    yeah thats from the bbc, see how much stuff u find on there about violence directed at ar people. and that link isnt violence anyway.....
     
  11. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    no it just mentions letter bombs, which of course aren't violent at all...

    and the BBC is the fairest news source you can get in this place.
     
  12. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    Oh, and it is all about violence on that link, read down more...
     
  13. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    "A petrol bomb and deaths threats are delivered to the Hall family and staff at Darley Oaks Farm. "

    "local pubs are attacked and are explosives let off at night leaving local residents sleepless. "
     
  14. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    Well I'd certainly agree with that. Glad we cleared that one up. We've established that you think that violence can be justified in certain situations. We've also established that you think violence can not be justified to save the lives of animals. Our dispute would therefore appear to center around what actions warrant the use of violent intervention and what actions don't. Let's ponder that one for a moment.

    What would you do if you saw someone setting fire to a cat in the street? Presumably you'd intervene verbally in an attempt to cause them to desist? Assuming they ignored you, would you conisder violent intervention to be justifiable if there was no other way of influencing the situation? How exactly does this differ from the use of violence in relation to animal liberation?

    You might argue that there are better ways to win the struggle, but that's a different debate. I'm not arguing about what course of action is more effective - I'm arguing about whether violence is a justifiable course of action, under the circumstances.

    Furthermore, regardless of the overall effectiveness of violence in the context of the wider struggle, is there not a sense of duty to intervene to end suffering in the here and now? If we know that creatures are currently being tortured, do we have the right to expect them to die in pain and agony while we engage in a moral debate with the British public? Would you have said to the Jews in the concentration camps that they should sacrifice their lives while we tried a little harder to reason with the Nazis?

    Now I don't for a minute think that this debate is simple or that it can be reduced to simple moral sloganising on either side. But to say that violence is "never justifed" is equally as naive as saying that violence is a "legitimate tool". One response leads to passive compliance with torture and abuse, and the other response leads to a process of justification that ultimately dehumanises its proponents. The more sensible postion is somewhere in the middle ground.

    And to get back to the point: digging up corpses? Well I'm not convinced that this is productive in the wider struggle, but if it got the fucking place closed down, then who am I to argue? I know that a corpse and the emotional distress of a few relatives is a damn sight less important to me than the pain and suffering of thousands of animals.
     
  15. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    youve never seen these pictures on the bbc have ya.
    animal rights aint the violent people.
    the fact they wanna save animals sorta shows that compared to people that want to kill them, which group would u thinks got the capacity to be violent.

    u wont get no straight truths from the media, stop been so blind people.
     
  16. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    [​IMG]

    can u find a picture of a animal abuser with a broken nose, no u cant


    do petrol bombs just explode on there own?? no!
    and a fucking sleepless night, yeah thats the most violent thing i ever heard
     
  17. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    We shouldn't expect animals to suffer while we search for a means of stopping it, but the course of action at the moment is causing a lot of distress for workers and their families, as well as the animals, so that just adds to more suffering. And it isn't getting anywhere. A big farm has been shut down after... how many years?

    I am sure it would have caused a lot less suffering of the workers and their families (my argument for morally wrong) and would have been quicker and more effective if they wer epeaceful and had the geneneral public on their side.

    Aside from that their has been attacks on people who have nothing to do with it. Example:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4724913.stm

    A homeless guy sells the big issue. He didn't write it, it's one of the only productive things he can do for a bit of money for food. He get's attacked for it.

    Same with attacks on local pubs. How are locals around the farms to blame? Half the time their not actually attacking the people who work there, or run the place!
     
  18. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    and so a letter bomb isn't violent? assaulting a bigg issue seller, when all he is trying to do is make a bit of money for fuckin food, that's not violent?

    you asked for examples of violence. and I never said there wasn't violence on the other side. but i gave you examples of violence from the animal rights activists, like it or not they happened.
     
  19. PIXIEFIED

    PIXIEFIED Member

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    and the explosives were crow scarers planted in a field, not sticks of tnt in a childs cornflakes.
    it was supposed to give sleepless nights there for adding more pressure to close down the farm. hence the name non violent direct action.
     
  20. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    So you think distress to humans is of more significance than the torture and abuse of animals?

    Are you serious? You think the actions of animal libbers cause more distress to animals than vivisection? I'd seriously reconsider that line of argument if I was you.

    It's shut down. By anyone's definition, that's 'getting somewhere'.

    Quite. Unfortunately, your argument is hopelessly naive. There have been many peaceful campaigns over the years, and little progress. The pharmaceutical companines are some of the richest organisations on the planet, and if you think they're just going to roll over and play ball in the light of a letter writing campaign, you've got another thing coming. Also, while the majority of the British public believe that vivisection actually advances medial science (sic), then their selfish nature is likely to prevent any serious advance for the anti-vivisection cause. And while we piss-arse about debating these points, animals are dying.
     

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