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Discussion in 'U.K.' started by PIXIEFIED, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    So you're saying, for example, that we shouldn't have used violence to liberate Belsen?
     
  2. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    I was talking in context to this discussion, what has the liberation of Belsen got to do with animal rights?
     
  3. cymru_jules

    cymru_jules Member

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    We do not have to resort to violence - we become like them.

    Fathers for Justice have had a glorious non violent 18 months or so gaining support, publicity, and are now making progress. In fact I would say they've had better publicity in this short time than the whole Darley Oaks Farm issue has in 6yrs - and even the most ardent animal rights campaigner would agree that this recent "success" doesn't actually change much in the grand scheme of things. I think that puts things in perspective.

    The important thing here though, is that whilst Fathers for Justice have been gaining support through non violent means, the animal rights groups have been loosing or dividing support through violent means. :(
     
  4. Claire

    Claire Senior Member

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    yeh,-I'd-agree-it's-mentally-distressing...I-guess-that's-their-point.

    We-dug-up-lots-of-dead-bones-on-a-new-housing-site-I-was-supervising-utilities-for.

    Turned-out-the-land-was-previously-a-graveyard....no-rest-for-those-bones...they-just-got-"disposed"-of.

    What-a-funny-old-world-we-live-in:&
     
  5. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    You were arguing that violence isn't justifiable. Are you now saying that there are exceptions?
     
  6. cymru_jules

    cymru_jules Member

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    It's not so much the body-snatching - that was just sick and I presume an oddity of desparation. It's the wider campaign against all those affiliated with the oppressors. The Belsen reference is an interesting one to pickup on here... whilst the allies fought against the nazi's with violence, we did not imprison and commit genocide against them.

    Thus, whilst aggressive or violent protesting is one thing, preying on somebody's child or grandchild because there father/grandfather runs an evil farm is very much wrong.

    Like I said earlier, these groups appeal to the wrong mindset who in my mind are not really interested in animal rights - only the violence, intimidation and thrill of it all. It makes me sad that some genuine activists do support their actions though. :(
     
  7. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    Seeing as though we are in a debate about Animal Rights Activists using violence, I was saying that violence isn't acceptable in this topic. I'm sorry, should I re-phrase it, in case you miss the thread topic :D (jokin :p)

    OK:

     
  8. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    That's a much broader subject though. I was taking issue with the specific point that violence can not be justified. Anyway, I'm pissed and off to bed. G'night :)
     
  9. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    G'night, sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite :) :p
     
  10. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    Ah, so violence against people is ok if it's to save people, but not ok to if it's to save animals from being tortured slowly to death? Gotcha. Peolple are important but animals aren't worth shit.

    Sooooo gone to bed now. G'night.
     
  11. Claire

    Claire Senior Member

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    Ahhh...I-see

    It's-not-OK-to-use-violence-to-stop-animal-cruelty...but-it-could-be-acceptable-elsewhere?

    In-your-opinion-where-would-it-be-acceptable?

    and..

    Why-is-it-accepable-there-but-not-for-animal-rights?
     
  12. Claire

    Claire Senior Member

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    hahaha

    you-beat-me-to-it-*shakes-fist*:p
     
  13. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    I never said that. That depends on the situation. All I'm saying is what I was addressing with that statement was on this topic, I'm not saying violence is right anywhere at all, I'm not saying it's wrong in some situations, but this is about only one situation, and I'm saying I disagree with it in this situation.

    Gimme a break, I never said anything about anywhere else, someone brought the liberation of Belsen up, and my response was that I wasn't commenting on the liberation of Belsen.

    I never said violence was acceptable there. I never commented on that. Where did I say violence was acceptable in saving humans?

    Nowhere.
     
  14. Claire

    Claire Senior Member

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    OK-I'll-give-you-a-break

    I-can't-really-be-arsed-debating-this-subject-again-myself....but-I'm-in-a-playful-mood:D

    I'll-leave-you-to-the-hounds-tomorrow:p

    *EDIT*-Hangon...you-edited-your-post-again...grrr...your-first-post-was-replying-to-me-not-Dok...*cracks-open-one-of-Zonks-alcopops*:(
     
  15. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    I'm gonna be eaten alive! Ouch...

    Well it's my opinion I guess. I know I'm not educated enough to explain it well at all, buuut I mean well lol :D
     
  16. cymru_jules

    cymru_jules Member

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    I think this argument that because humans violate and subject animals to cruel acts, somehow gives justification for the same to be done in response to them is a flawed one.

    Again, the Belsen reference suggests that we could have somehow fighted the nazi's by imprisoning them, starving them, and then gassing them. Which is of course entirely ridiculous, and even if it was a way to fight the nazis - wouldn't that appall you?

    There is such thing as an appropriate response, to achieve your aims - and what has occurred is anything but - purely because in the very least it brings us down to their level and worse has a detrimental effect on the rest of us.
     
  17. cymru_jules

    cymru_jules Member

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    Anyway, off to bed. It's been... interesting. ;)
     
  18. boothy

    boothy Senior Member

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    Yeah I meant to quote Dok but I pressed the quote button at the bottom of your post accidently :p sowwy bout that... i should check posts i guess
     
  19. Claire

    Claire Senior Member

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    Give-my-love-to-Dok;)
     
  20. DoktorAtomik

    DoktorAtomik Closed For Business

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    Well would you care to express an opinion then? If you're prepared to say that violence is always wrong under all circumstances, then you have a coherent and reasonable moral position - all be it one with which I disagree. Or do you believe, for example, that the violence of the allies in WWII was justified in order to save those suffering under the Nazis?

    No shit! It's also not an argument that I made. See above.
     

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