New Jerusalem

1. I donot believe Old Babylon was spoken of as a metaphore.
2. I donot believe Modern Babylon is spoken of as a metaphore.
3. To believe that either one of these Babylon's are spoken of as a metaphore, reduces the text to nonsense.
4. A first century Jew would not of understood the description of Modern or future Babylon as described in the Old Testament. For this Babylon did not exist yet. And that is why in the Book of Revelation it speaks of future Babylon, as, Mystery Babylon. You cannot understand who Mystery Babylon is, unless you take the prophecies that refer to Babylon from the Old and New Testaments. It is only when you put the prophecies together, that you begin to understand who Babylon is. And these prophecies will not be understood, unless you consider them from a literal view. In the Bible, is the full story of our future. It tells you what is going to happen to America, Israel, and the nations that will try and push the Jews out of their land. If you take the literal view, you will see our future. The prophecies of Babylon tie into the events which are described in Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 38, and 39. These chapters will tell you why God has brought the Jews back to Israel. The events we see today in the Middle East are all part of God's bigger plan. God brought the Jews back to the Middle East as bait. The day is soon coming when the Islamic nations will try and drive the Jews out of their land. America will not be their to protect the Jews on this day. Yet, God will be. The Scriptures are clear on this.

 

If by "Old Babylon" you mean the Babylon that was ruled by Nebuchadnezzar, I will agree. That is most certainly historical.

If you say that the USA is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation, then you most certainly DO think it is a metaphor. If it is NOT a metaphor then it can only refer to the nation of Babylon with the same borders and type of government as Old Babylon. And even then, it would be hard to demonstrate how this new "actual" Babylon is the same nation as Old Babylon because there would be no continuity of rulership or citizenry or even borders or government type. It would, at best, be a copy of Old Babylon.

Begging the question again Campbell. It is only non-sensical if you assume that everything else MUST be literal. You have yet to demonstrate this is an appropriate way to interpret a text. You seem to forget that people use figures of speech in writing. Why do you expect the Bible to be different?

So a 1st century Jew (whose ONLY point of reference for understanding Revelation WAS the old testament) who understood Babylon to be a near-future event (as in just a few years) and understood it to be a nation currently in existence is misguided?

You have yet to justify the assertion. You back it up with a circular argument. Your justification is that if you don't read it literally then the text is reduced to non-sense. The problem is that it is ONLY non-sensical IF you assume that it must be literal. So your justification doesn't work. What other justification can you provide for your method of interpretation? If you respond to anything in this post, please respond to this.

And if you read it as it was intended and was originally understood by those to whom it was written, then you understand that most of Revelation was fulfilled with the 7 year war of Jerusalem in 67-73 AD following the death of Nero. You don't have to pull scriptures out of obscure passages to piece together some sort of convoluted eschatology where Christ secretly returns and takes the Christians away and there is a supernatural anti-christ who is indistiguishable from Christ in the power that he yeilds (even to the extent of resurrecting himself). Furthermore, you don't have to look at a newspaper in order to try and fit Revelation to modernity. You can be confident that Revelation DID happen just as God said it would.

You (meaning Campbell and other futurists) believe Revelation to be speaking of our future; you count on it. As such, it is an indication of your faith. I believe that Revelation was almost completely fulfilled in the 1st century. My faith would not be shaken should the Lord tarry, should Israel be disbanded, should a third temple be abandoned, should the Eastern Gate be opened or destroyed, in fact, nothing that would shake the pillars of a futurist will affect my faith, nor will I have to alter my interpretations due changes in the current political community. For a "partial" preterist, Revelation is a vindication of Christ and of our faith. The preterist position is more consistent with the Old Testament, with historical and cultural contexts, and with the literary style itself; furthermore, it doesn't require piecemealing in order to paint a convoluted picture of future events whose interpretation is a slave to changes in gobal, economic, and socio-politcal communities and events.

 

The convoluted picture you are speaking of, is your belief that the Old and New Testament prophecies were fulfilled in the past. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The only way you can make an arguement for this is to try and fit a few historical events, and with great effort into a small part of the prophecy. And when you read the Great abundance of other facts of the prophecy, you must deny them all, and simply say they are not literal. You have a way of saying you believe in the Bible, while at the same time you deny most of it. If the 7 year war with Jerusalem was the true fulfillment of the prophecy, why are the Christians not with Christ now? Why did Jesus Christ not return? Why is the New Jerusalem not here on Earth. The reason is simple, the prophecies were never fulfilled. And the reason you donot believe in these prophecies is because you don't believe in the Bible. So please donot come here pretending to be a Christian. And I have never met a real Christian who does not believe in the prophecies. You say I need to lay out the appropriate way to interpret the text. I can tell you there is only one way to interpret the text, and it has little to do with worldly wisdom. Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would come and He would teach us all things. And this is the reason the Bible clearly states that the natural man will not understand the things of the Spirit, because they are Spiritually discearned. When I came to understand who Babylon was, I mentioned it to another Christian man. He looked at me and said. "It's funny you should tell me this, because just the other day I was getting out of bed and just as my feet touch the floor Revelation 18 came into my mind, and I knew it was speaking of America." Go to the web sites, check out America and Babylon. God is revealing to His people in a moment in time who Babylon is. It is the Holy Spirit that is opening up the eyes of His church. When I was four years old God gave me a vision of the Anti Christ. I did not know who he was at the time, yet I found out latter when I was 17 years old. The Bible is not some Book that will be understood with simple human reason. Without Christ in your heart, and the Holy Spirit opening your eyes, you will understand little of the Books hidden treasures.
Simple human understanding, is a poor substitute for the Holy Spirit. Do You really think this world has a future, because it was Christ who stated that if it were not for His return, man would destroy himself, it was the Bible that states that in the last days perlious times will come. And I am confident that Revelation was never fulfilled in the past, because most of the prophecies remain unfulfilled, which includes the return of Christ. The last time I looked, I did not see Christ Kingdom here on earth, I donot see us living in a world of peace. DO YOU SEE THE WORLD AT PEACE? DO YOU SEE GOD'S KINGDOM HERE ON EARTH? HAS EARTH NOW BECOME A PARADISE? ARE WE NOW LIVING ON THE NEW EARTH? BECAUSE THIS IS THE END OF THE PROPHECY.

Your understanding of the prophecies, are from the most humanistic approach, and has nothing to do with the Spirit filled church.

 

Okay, Campbell. You know that there isn't a single thing here that I have said that is outside the scope of Christian orthodoxy. I have not denied the divinity of Christ, His resurrection, nor have I denied the means of salvation. I have not denied that He is physically going to return. So please, do not make some sacred cow out of Revelation. A believer can believe about Revelation however he wishes and, though he might be wrong, can still be a believer.

I believe in them, I just think that they have been fulfilled. And honestly, I am not really surprised. There are quite a few out there though.

I have never said that ALL of Revelation has been fulfilled. I don't remember you asking me what I think remains unfulfilled, in fact.

This would be the part of Revelation that has still not happened. We are in the millenial reign right now. And if you say that we are not, then WHO is reigning the universe?

This has become pointless. You obviously do not understand my position. In fact, you know almost nothing of it. So unless you are willing to take an honest look at my position and listen to the words of scholars far more learned AND spiritual than either of us, this conversation should end. You can have the last word if you want to, I really don't care.

 

So we are now in the Millenial Reign. Well if I recall, millenial refers to 1,000 years. And since Christ has been gone for 2,000 years, does that mean we are in the second Millenial Reign. And the prophecy states that He would be on His Throne here on earth, not somewhere else. And the scholars that believe this, are of the most liberal, and humanstic. It is doubtful than many of them even believe in the virgin birth. I don't have to consider your position, I have heard all of this before, and it's always from those who attempt to rationalize the prophecies away. The one's who push this theory, are usually those who find no comfort in the return of Christ. And so they embrace anything that will push the certainity of His coming farther away. The Christians who have a burning desire to be with Christ, would never accept this most liberal, and torchered view of Bible prophecy. As I have stated before, the only way you can fit ancient historical events into these prophecies, is by agreeing to reject the other 80 or 90% of the given prophecy. If you approched the 300 prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of Christ, as you have with these end time prophecies, there would be no Christian church today. All the prophecies concerning Christ were fulfilled LITERALLY. And you are mistaken when you think you must look to other scholars who you believe know more than you or I. The Bible tells you to look to the Holy Spirit, and not to other men. Scholars come and go, and you can flip a coin and find a scholar who will differ on any one position. What you believe, should never be determined on the flip of a coin.

 

there goes campbell deciding who is and isnt a real christian. God, what a model christian campbell is.

 

Actually Colours I did not have to decide anything. True Christians testify to the truth. And the only one's I have ever met, who believed these prophecies were fulfilled in the past, are the same ones who reject most Biblical truth.
The Bible speaks of these having a form of Godliness, but denying the power there of. And as far as model Christian's go, the Bible states all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. There is no one, who is good in God's eyes. I know there are Christians who don't agree with me on everything, yet when you deny entire stories, or just block out large sections of Scripture, then what more can one say. To me, when you get to the point where you can ignore 90% of a prophecy, and struggle to fit the other 10% into some historical event. Well, it's just another way to deny Scripture, and call God a liar. And what you discover, is the historical event, has nothing to do with the prophecy. And that's why some can say we are living in the 1,000 year Reign of Christ, 2,000 years later. When facts are nolonger important, you can make up all kinds of stories.

 

The israelites saw Jerusalem as perfection. In the Old testament it was as close as they could get to thier God; in the Temple. The Jerusalem in Revelation is perfected unity with God, ie "God will wipe away every tear from thier eyes".

 

Amen.

 

None of it matters. What matters is faith in God, living as Jesus showed us, and loving one another, caring for others, being kind, not judging (this includes labeling people as true christians or otherwise)

I believe a "true christian" knows that whether these prophecies are true or not, the message of Christ is not altered or affected. You obviously cannot grasp this. I dont like to judge, but form my experience so far, the ones i feel are true christians are the ones who love because it is in their nature to love. THey are not ones who read the bible, recite lines and get into arguments to reaffirm their beliefs. Being a true christian is about having a moral and just heart, it is not about faith alone, or belief in some stories, fact or otherwise.

 

Ok, having faith in God. Who's God? Your God? Their God? The God of Islam? Buda? The Christian God? Who should we have faith in? And why should we believe in any of them? Having a moral and just heart? The Bible states mans heart is desperately wicked. Everything you have stated sounds good, until you actually have to start thinking about what it is you really believe in. Then you will need to read your book of choice to find out if it's worth the paper it's written on. And maybe you will discover, the Book that would lead you to heaven, is actually leading you to Hell. Yet, perhaps going to hell with a moral and just heart, is what's really important. And maybe that is why the Bible has stated, that the blind will lead the blind, and they will both fall in the pit. And maybe that is why Jesus states, that at the time of judgement, people will come before Him and say, "Lord, Lord, did we not do many wonderful works in your name", and Jesus will say to them, "depart from Me, I never knew you." The reason people read the Bible, is to proclaim the truth, and the reason many resist hearing the Bible, is to deny that truth. Christ did not come to this world to bring peace, and He tells you this. You show me a man who claims to be a Christian, who is respected by men, and is loved by all, and I will show you a man who is not a Christian. Jesus has stated that the world will hate you, and then tells us to remember, they hated Him first.

 

I dont mean to start from scratch and find a new religion. If youre christian, seek a relationship with your god.
And perhaps the line "Lord, Lord, did we not do many wonderful works in your name", and Jesus will say to them, "depart from Me, I never knew you." refers to people boasting about good deeds. And that good deeds dont necessarily mean a good heart.
Its not as if it said "Jesus said to a man who loved the world as he did, 'depart from me i never knew you'"
That is exactly what im talking about, when i say pure heart. You can do many good works for jesus to see, and they could still be meaningless. (Much like the false preaching that goes on at these forums) And perhaps jesus doesnt want us doing good works in his name, rather we do it because it is the right thing to do. He taught "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". What meaning does this have if we do our good works for Jesus? We do them out of love. That is what the quote is speaking of, not just good works alone.

 

And this is what I have been saying. I donot preach good works. Yet I donot discourage them. My message, is the same message Christ commanded us to preach. Unless a man is Born Again, he will not enter into the Kingdom of God. All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. My only claim from the beginning has been, that the Bible is true, and you can believe it. We are saved by grace, and not by works. And the only one who can give us eternal life, is the Man Christ Jesus. Good works only reflect sincerity, yet, no one will enter heaven because of works. For as the Bible states, that are best works are filth rags before the Throne of God. If you consider what I have stated to be false preaching, then I would say your arguement is with Christ and His Word. For what I am saying, is just a repeat of what Jesus has already taught. Jesus stated that the fields are white unto harvest, but where are the reapers? Christians are here to give God the Glory, and to reach as many for Christ in the short life that He has given us.

WHERE ARE THE REAPERS FOR JESUS?

 

i guess well agree to disagree. thats what it always comes down to anyway. you read it one way, i read it another.

 

Well, I believe what Jesus has clearly stated.

 

sometimes.

 

You.

To the pure, all things are pure, but to the sinful and unbelieving, even their own mind is corrupted.