Nelson Mandela: A mass murderer and terrorist

Where does ones life's accomplishments or value begin or end.

What measure do we use to value worth.

How many leaders , let alone all of us are without black marks and does that negate the good or worth that may come at a later time.

How would you be judged based upon your life.

 

I can sit here and say that paul walker's death hit closer and means more to me than mandela. What did he do for me? Not a thing but wasted times on lie's in history class.

Paul Walker, He at least entertained me in many movies. Never a bad thing about him, Gave more than most and not in the 'media whores' lights. A great guy that never got a chance to fulfill.

To each their own, I never cared for the lies fed to the masses when the library in the school(s) had the truth in them. All you had to do was read and the real truth was as plain as day.

 

Never thought i would hear a comparison of NM and PW but then again there are lots of things here that i read that i would never think i would read.

 

People will justify anything if disagreeing with it is at odds with their dogmatic beliefs they have picked up over the years. Mandela is one of the champions of the more political, left leaning 'hippies'. Mostly old people in my experience.

Not that slavery on any level or controlling people is ok to me. But here's an example. I have a friend who's in her 50s. She was an original hippie, protested at kent state when those shootings happened and so on. Nelson Mandela is one her heroes, she basically turns a blind eye or intellectually justifies anything any one of her 'heroes' or 'causes' did that was fucked up. She would flip out on me if I brought this issue up like Rat did.

Yet she also thinks it is absurd, shameful and horrible that I own guns and would kill someone intruding in my house with the intent to cause harm. We've had many arguments over it, which she quickly escalates to yelling and name calling and ignoring reason. Because why? Well, private gun ownership and one on one violence in the form of survival of the fittest is not accepted in her adopted dogma. People get stubborn to the point of stupidity when they try to look at everything one way.

I don't know everything about Mandela, I don't even know that much about him. And as bad as it sounds I don't really give a fuck. But from what I do know, if I were an oppressed minority in that kind of situation I'd be killing people too and hating the group that was oppressing me. But I would be hunting down the power structure one by one, not innocents. I don't agree with killing innocent people, even if they are 'guilty by complacency' as kitty so eloquently justified.

 

Well, I haven't seen a post by him expressing concern about white babies either. He expressed concern about innocent children. It didn't seem as though the color of their skin was contemplated at all....on his part anyway.

But if you feel as though only black babies are innocent then we could talk about that. Or white babies. I'm confused now. What color babies are innocent again??

 

a very flawed, very human person, who accompleshed a very amazing thing.
and that's the whole point.

i don't want to remember him as a bronze statue or the sanitized version they're already beginning to rewrite him as.

i don't want that disconnect that historains always make of larger then life.
he was just exactly life size, with all the warts and brave moments both.

 

Well said Skip!!!

 

i dont know, i can say for sure what i would do if i was a person of a different race in a country i never been to in a time when i wasnt even born yet and with people who at best would have treated me worse than the worst people i actually know treated me.
yup i can tell you exactly what i would do in that situation.

 

I'm honestly worried about the future of South Africa now. Mandela, for better or worse, was the "conscience" for the ANC (if it ever really had one). With their "conscience" now dead, I'm worried some of their more extreme attitudes may come to the fore. I'm worried that Mandela was the only thing holding back South Africa's own little Rhodesian experience.

 

her`s is a desperate tactic. If anyone questions the official line, simply insinuate that they are racist. Doesn't matter if there is no evidence to back up the insinuation.

 

Fair ,balanced ,and thought out post.
Mendela was not unlike some of the the top 60,s radials in some ways- (both black & white- see panthers,weathermen, etc..) who later renounced thier violence, bombings,etc..and were more successful changing the system from within.(ok maybe its a stretch on the comparison,but you get the point,right?)

Again, as Skip points out, shaking up the established order to bring about change for a entire people, knowing full well the consequences-takes some determination and courage(IMO)

During apartheid blacks were subjected to the worst form of discrimination by the white minority that invaded their land. Blacks were restricted and forced to live in townships, whereas whites were allowed to enjoy unlimited freedoms. Blacks as the natives of the land were not even seen as equal citizens.. Mandela reacted >, he was committed and determined to restore the basic human rights for his oppressed people for which as result he went to prison (and not just a 6month bid)
Some regarded him as a hero and a freedom fighter, others described him as villain and terrorist. But> He did sacrifice his entire life not only fighting against white supremacy but also against black domination, this distinguishes him from other human rights activists in his country.
Right or wrong,popular or not,,its just my thoughts on the guy-

 

People who learned long ago not to consider Mandela a terrorist-

FW De Klerk (President of South Africa while Mandela was in Prison)
MILLIONS of South Africans
World Court
Nobel Committee
UN
US Government
99.999% of the world

People who haven't

Pressed Rat

But being on this list will make him proud.

 

just throwing this out there. btw washington is my favorite president but my answer would be the same...

because war was declared.



edit: i dont know enough of the facts to comment for certain but i hear an argument made about how NM killed innocent babies (oxymoron i know) but that was unlikely with the revolutionaries because the king would not send over babies to fight for the crown. hence, washington didnt have to kill babies while Mandela may have killed some in collateral damage, which is the difference to some people that think the natives should have stayed in their place as sub-servants.

 

Both that and because he was on the winning side.

 

The scales of good and bad are arbitrary. Without standard metrics it's all dull sensationalism. Like a twenty four seven episode of jerry springer.

 

This.


It's going to be an interesting ride

 

Everyone agrees(civilized people) that the killing of innocents is not a desired or morally agreeable result of conflict. We can most likely agree that it has always happened and will continue to do so. It is in the nature of war that incidental death occurs, as various movements and ideas backed by one faction or another fling armaments about.

Anyone that knows anything about the system of apartheid and how the blacks of SA were treated, must understand that in order to change a system like that in which the majority was literally under the gun and forced to =live in shacks, were shot down for occasional fun, had their movements restricted and had no future to speak of--no voice in government -----had to see that extreme measures were needed. I don't like that he and his fellow ANC members resorted to violence to get some relief. But I understand it.

He should have been arrested for violence, however not under the aegis of a totally immoral system to which he and his fellow millions had been forced to live under.

27 years. And while serving his sentence, he somehow came to the conclusion that two wrongs don't make a right. Even after the massacre of the 67 of his fellow countrymen and women trying to make a point to the government that considered them nothing other than animals. He learned Afrikaans in order to be able to speak to his fellow white citizens. He began to see that he was wrong and set about to bring ALL SF's together with the inclusionary, loving grace that he is now noted for and is sorely needed in the world. After 27 years. And damn if he didn't get it done. The pictures/videos of fellow blacks and whites rejoicing and dancing in the streets was a sight to behold, considering.

Someone mentioned the difference between the English and the way India threw off the yoke of imperialism by passive resistance. Well and good. Now think about Syria and how that will not work there. Or many other locations. Difference in the meaning of individual civilizations.

His life was a life of contradictions and considerations. At the end---he was exemplary, depending on ones point of view. To some, he will always be a murdering thug. The big picture is that he actually brought a whole country together, populated by a murderous regime on one hand and a huge majority population that could have slaughtered all the whites and taken everything they had. He worked out his contradictions and considered what the moral implications of revenge would bring to SA. The proof of his judgement stands.

 

Oddly enough, last night CNN mentioned an anti-Mandela backlash taking place online.

To be fair, King George didn't recognize the authority of the Continental Congress to declare anything.

 

King George lost.